NOTE: The method I discuss here includes ideas similar to those proposed by Ludwig Narziss and Greg Noonan long before I came along, a couple dudes often credited for inspiring the public to brew and drink more delicious lager beer!
I’m a lover of all things lager- Márzen, Schwarzbier, Helles, and Pilsner are some of favorite styles. As a homebrewer, I initially avoided making lager beer due to my inability to precisely control fermentation temperature. Once I finally got my chamber setup and made a couple lagers using more traditional fermentation schedules, I found myself avoiding them due to how long they took to finish. I also began wondering how I might be able to hasten the process. I had learned that with precise control of my temperature, I could turn most ales around in 2 weeks and wondered why I couldn’t use this control to do the same with lager beers. I made a couple batches that came out surprisingly well, played with the method for a few months, and was gradually convincing myself the days of 2 month lagers were behind me. After numerous successful batches, I happen to catch an episode of The Session on The Brewing Network where Mike “Tasty” McDole mentioned how he takes lager grain-to-glass in 2 weeks using precise control of fermentation temperature. This was validating, particularly since I was aiming for a much less anxiety provoking 3-4 week turnaround.
German brewers began making lager beers long before the advent of controllable refrigeration, fermenting and conditioning their beer in caves that maintained a fairly consistent 45°-55°F. They also brewed with the seasons, hence beers like Märzen, which was only brewed between September 29 and April 23 with consumption usually commencing in late Summer through October. The point I’m trying to make here is that the long-term fermentation and aging appears to be mostly a function of the inability to control environmental temperature.
A few things we’ve learned over the last couple centuries of brewing is that yeast generally works slower at cooler temperatures and faster at warmer temperatures, most esters and phenolics are produced during the growth phase of fermentation, which in my experience lasts about 4-5 days for cool fermented lagers, and beer lagers faster at colder temperatures. I know, there’s supposedly something else that magically happens to a beer over time besides just clarity, but let’s be real here, clarity is what most of us are waiting for as the indication that a beer is ready to drink. And if I’m being totally honest, I sort of enjoy the very minimal perceptible changes that occur in a beer over the 2-3 weeks I have it on tap.
| THE METHOD |
Step 1: Primary Fermentation
Chill wort to pitching temp of 48°-53°F (9°-12°C), pitch adequately sized starter (decanted), set regulator to initial fermentation temp between 50°-55°F (10°-13°C), and leave the beer to ferment until it is at least 50% attenuated. I’ve found the time this takes is dependent on 2 primary factors:
1. Original Gravity: a 1.080 Doppelbock is going to take longer to reach 50% attenuation than a 1.048 Helles.
2. Yeast Type: in my experience, rehydrated dry lager yeasts take 12-36 hours longer to show signs of active fermentation compared to liquid yeasts built up in starters or even slurry harvested from a prior batch.
I originally advised leaving the fermenting beer at primary temp for 5 days assuming folks were checking SG prior to making temp changes. This was a mistake on my part. While it is possible even high OG beers will reach 50% attenuation in this amount of time, I’ve heard from a couple folks who experience differently. As such, here are my new better-safe-than-sorry recommendations:
| OG of Wort | Yeast Type | Approximate Primary Time |
|---|---|---|
| ≤ 1.060 OG | Liquid | 4-7 days |
| ≤ 1.060 OG | Dry | 5-8 days |
| ≥ 1.061 | Liquid | 6-10 days |
| ≥ 1.061 | Dry | 7-14 days |
Another factor worth considering is your preferred primary fermentation temperature, as yeast is going to work a bit faster at 54°F (12°C) compared to 48°F/ (9°C). The original 5 day recommendation will likely hold true for most folks, as it has for me, I just want to emphasize the importance of taking SG measurements prior to making temp changes.
Step 2: The Ramp Up
Once 50% attenuation is reached, remove the probe from the side of the fermentor so it measures ambient temp in the chamber and start bumping the regulator up 5°F every 12 hours until it reaches 65°-68°F (18°-20°C). Allow the beer to remain at this temp until fermentation is complete and the yeast have cleaned-up after themselves, which can take anywhere from 4 to 10 days.
Alternate Option
Keep the temp probe attached to the fermentor and forgo the incremental temperature increases but immediately setting your regulator to 65°-68°F (18°-20°C). While I still prefer the more gentle approach to temp increases, I’ve heard from many people have had great success using this slightly less time-consuming approach.
Step 3: The Ramp Down
When FG is stable and no diacetyl or acetaldehyde is detected in the beer, begin ramping the temp down in 5°-8°F increments every 12 hours or so until it reaches 30°-32°F (-1°-0°C). Allow the beer to remain at this temp for 3-5 days, during which it will begin to drop clear.
Alternate Option 1
Setting the regulator to 30°-32°F (-1°-0°C) without gradually stepping the temp down will shave 2-3 days off of the entire process. Many brewers have done this with positive results, myself included, though I still tend to prefer the original method if only to reduce the amount of airlock fluid that gets sucked into the beer as it crashes.
Alternate Option 2
If super bright beer is something you pine for, as I do, and you’re okay with putting animal products in your beer, as I am, consider adding gelatin once the temp of the beer has reached 50°F (10°C). In my experience, this has significantly decreased the amount of time required for the beer to clear to commercial levels, I usually end up kegging 24-48 hours after adding the gelatin.
Step 4: Packaging & Storage
Once the beer is clear, it’s ready to be packaged, the process of which is obviously different depending on whether one uses kegs or bottles. Yes, bottle conditioning is absolutely possible with this method.
For Those Who Keg…
Simply transfer the cold and clear beer to your keg, place it in your keezer on gas, and leave it for 3+ days before enjoying! Using my typical kegging/carbonation method in conjunction with gelatin, I’ve found the beer is usually ready for consumption after about 5 days of “lagering” in my keezer, while others swear their beers peak after 2 weeks or so of cold storage. This is likely an issue of subjective preference mixed with a sprinkle of confirmation bias, but regardless, do what you works best for you!
For Those Who Bottle…
Use a trusted priming sugar calculator to determine the amount of your preferred fermentable to use; adding extra yeast is unnecessary, even if you fined with gelatin. Place the primed bottles in an environment that maintains a fairly consistent 68°-72°F (20°-23°C) and allow them to carbonate for 2-3 weeks. Once carbonated, I recommend placing multiple bottles in the fridge to “bottle lager” for 5+ days before enjoying, as this will encourage the precipitation of most particulate matter, providing you a clear and delicious lager beer.
| EVIDENCE |
To the skeptics out there or those who feel anxious questioning convention, I understand completely, believe me. I know it’s not easy trusting some dude you’ve never met, but I mean it when I say the many lager beers I’ve made using this method have tasted exactly how they were brewed to taste, no different than those I made in the past using the traditional drawn-out method. If you’ve been holding off from making lager beer because of the time commitment, consider giving this method a shot, I have a feeling you’ll be brewing many more lagers in the future if you do.
Cheers!
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596 thoughts on “Lager Method”
I’m definitely going to be giving this method try. Are there any yeast strains you would avoid using? Maybe have had less than optimal results?
I’ve used so many successfully and not one has been bad.
Awesome, that’s good to hear.
I’m assuming you don’t rack off after d rest
To a secondary fermentor? Nope, I do not.
Hello Marshall and thx for sharing with us so many enlightening experiments, i really enjoy reading them ! I have a question for you, is it possible to use protafloc or irsh moss instead of gelatin at step 3 ?
Cheers !
Hi Olivier,
Protafloc and Irish moss are both kettle finings, meaning they get added to the wort during the boil. Gelatin, on the other hands, is a fining that gets added to the fermented beer once it has chilled to below about 50F/10C.
So to answer your question: no, you cannot use Protafloc or Irish moss instead of gelatin to achieve the same effect. Personally, I use both in my beers!
At the end, when you say bottle age for 5+ day, @ what temp?
Thanks
~70˚F for a couple weeks, until carbonated, then toss in a fridge (~36˚F or cooler) for another few days or until clear.
Ok, thanks. That’s where I’m at not. Only difference is I leave mine in for 3 weeks. Don’t know why, but it seems to work out a little better for me.
Do I add the gelatin to it as I’m ramping the temp back down and once it hits 50 add it?
I add the gelatin solution once the beer is 50F or lower.
Would it be ok to added at 32 degrees farenheit?
the last stage (ramp down and 3-5 days at 0°C), is it necessary if I don’t care about clearness of the beer? my fermentation chamber can’t reach freezing temperatures.
On my frig I couldn’t get it to go below about 45F until I called somone and told him what I was doing and he told me to adjust both the freezer and fresh food section to its highest setting. I did that and between my inkbird temp controller and the new settings, I was able to get it down to 28 (to cold I know) Might want to try that if you haven’t already done so.
Not necessary. I actually prefer to skip this step as I’m not a fan of cold crashing in an open vessel due to oxidation risks, Your beer will clear just fine in the keg or bottles if left cold for a few days (to a few weeks depending on the particular yeast strain flouclation).
If bottle conditioning make sure crash the bottles in the fridge after fully carbonated and be careful when pouring not to disturb the sediment at the bottom. My bottle conditioned lagers pour crystal clear as long as I am careful to leave that last bit of sediment in the bottle.
If you are kegging then the first half pint may come out a bit hazy, but the rest should be clear.
This is a great idea… I’m going to package after the ramp up and cold crash/gelatin in the keg.
Garreth – Hope lagering/clearing directly in the kegs works out for you (Option A). I only have experience with bottle conditioning, but will start kegging sometime in 2018. If the kegs do in fact pour clear after the initial bit of sediment is dispensed I’d be curious to know.
Other options I see would be:
B) Crashing in one keg, then transferring to another keg.
C) modifying/cutting the dip tube so it rests above the sediment
D) Or this system which replaces a dip tube: http://www.clearbeerdraughtsystem.com/
I’d prefer not to use any of these options though if option A works out just fine. Look forward to hearing your feedback
Hey Marshall,
I have been reading your posts for quite awhile, after reading your article on “The Black Box” I snagged one and can’t wait to do my first lager using it.
You have to slightly different lagering methods, the one above and the one that you have in black box article. Which one do you recommend using?
Method in The Black Box article….
QUICK LAGER PROFILE
Chill wort to 46°-47° prior to pitching yeast
SP0: 48°
dh0: 120 (5 day ferment)
SP1: 48°
dh1: 120 (5 day free-rise/ramp up)
SP2: 65°
dh2: 72 (3 day attenuation/diacetyl rest)
SP3: 65°
dh3: 168 (7 day ramp down/lager)
SP4: 33°
dh4: 0
Thanks!
Perry
I’d suggest using whichever one is quicker, I haven’t been able to tell much of a difference either way 🙂
Hey, loving your work…! Quick qn: I need to rack to secondary before ramping down at stage 3, should I have any concerns doing this, aside from usual risk of infection?
Any reason you need to rack to secondary? I ferment in primary only, which is also what I recommend those who ask. If you really need to rack to secondary, the biggest concern is contaminant pickup, as you noted, and/or oxidation of the beer; be sure to transfer gently to avoid the latter.
What about if I transfer to keg at this point? With sounding valve attached. In my setup there is only one fermenter and this would allow for another batch.
I guess the earlier the transfer the less is the risk of oxidation as active yeast may absorb the oxygen.
Sounds like it’d work to me.
I’ve gotten your process down to about a 15 days now, from brewing to kegging. 5 days fermenting (at medium range of the yeast, e.g., wyeast 2278 @ 54 degrees – smack pack stepped up for 24 hours with ~2 Ltr DME on a stirplate). 5 days rest at 69-70 degrees (my room temp this time of year) with daily carboy jostling to keep yeast roused. I go with room temp, because my ferment chamber has some bulk stored wine at 54 degrees and I don’t want to swing the temp in the chamber too much. 3-5 days cold crash in my kegerator. Rack to keg and fine with glycerin. 5-6 days of pressure with beer at mid 30s. Once carbonated, it’s decently clear, like the photos in this article. Any mild cloudiness is chill haze that goes away as the beer warms up to 50s. However, after two weeks in keg at mid 30s, it’s super glass clear even at mid 30s. Too bad though, I usually finish it by then. I’ve done a German pils, Czech pils and a Vienna Lager with this method so far. Works great. Thanks.
Thanks again for this blog post. Just enjoying my first fast German pilsner. It is great!
Just popped my first Bohemian Pils in to the fermenter and was canvassing opinions on lagering when someone suggested this – gonna give it a try.
For bottling, would it be better to go straight to bottling from the lager temps or do a slow ramp up to bottling temps before doing the actual bottling?
Prime and bottle at lager temps, bottle condition at normal (warm) temp.
Temperature used for priming sugar calculation:
Let’s assume I brew a 1.050 czech lager using the method you suggest above, basically working with three different temperatures. For simplicity’s sake, let’s assume the following:
Primary Fermentation: 10°C (50°F)
Diacetyl Rest: 20°C (68°F)
Lagering: 0°C (32°)
Then let’s assume I take my carboy out of the lagering fridge and immediately bottle at exactly lagering temperature of 0°C/32°F (even though we know it will warm up a bit during the bottling process).
When calculating the amount of priming sugar to use, which temperature do I enter into the calculator? I assume 20°C/68°F (since that was the temperature where the “active” primary fermentation finished up at a stable gravity of 1.010), but would appreciate confirmation before I screw up the batch I’m working on!
(I’d use a calculator similar to http://www.brewunited.com/priming_sugar_calculator.php)
@mrbentron: Yes, for the purposes of priming sugar calculations, use the highest temperature that the beer was subjected to for any extended period of time.
Just to verify that I have not misunderstood. 50% refers to the apparent attenuation, so I will start to ramp up when my 1.062 wort reaches 1.031?
That is what I meant when I wrote this, indeed.
So it’s 50% assuming you’re getting down to 1.000.. I just though I was supposed to base it on my estimated FG on beer smith.
This method works!
I’m on my second batch using this method, a quasi-bock/munich dunkel thingy made with WLP833 Bock Lager yeast. My first brew with this method was a Munich Helles brewed with the same yeast. Hands down, that was the best beer I’ve ever made. I had friends thinking it was a commercial brew. Crystal clear with zero off flavors.
Here’s the crazy thing, my personal experience has been that it actually takes LESS time than what is noted above for my beers to do their thing. I kid you not, 2 weeks grain to glass…for a freaking lager! The guys at my LHBS looked at me like I was speaking Chinese when I told them about this.
There are a few key things that I’ve found to be important: 1) pitch a BIG starter (mine were both 2.5-3 liters on a stir plate) and; 2) You need to be a hydrometer Nazi. No fudging numbers here or getting by with guesses.
The only thing I will change is that I will be racking to secondary for this next one, if only to minimize sucking in yeast/trub into the keg. You sacrifice a little volume and increase the potential for oxygenation/contamination, but I’m clumsy with the auto siphon so I will take the extra step now. I used to do primary only on all my beers until I started using gelatin to fine, and found that the secondary helps them clarify quicker and I have fewer murky beers when I start pulling from the keg.
Long comment, I know, but give this method a shot! I’m glad I tried it and will do almost exclusively lagers from now on.
Josh,
1) pitch a BIG starter (mine were both 2.5-3 liters on a stir plate) and; 2) You need to be a hydrometer Nazi. No fudging numbers here or getting by with guesses.
1) I have found that number one is not AS important as I previously believed, but it’s certainly good insurance.
2) I found the second one to be not at all important. I have made beers, purposely, flying blind the entire way. Fill kettles with water, pick some grains, eye the amounts, crush, strike, batch sparge, boil to target vol, throw* in an ounce or 2 of hops. Add 1/2 ounce twd flameout, chill, yeast, keg. Measured after the fact for fun. Yop – 1.010 or so. Tastes ok. Stress and worry free! Did I nail an authentic German Pils, or Vienna etc? Probably not. But it was a decent lager like beer!
Or maybe you did nail it!
1) Size of starter is just an estimation of yeast cells. The point is to make a starter that is more than adequate from a total yeast cell count for your beer’s volume and gravity. I agree to an extent because once a requisite number of cells is reached, there likely no difference.
2) I disagree with your assertion here. Can you make a decent beer with absolutely no measurement? Sure. But I’m after consistency and repeatability. I want to know as much as possible about my beer to be able to control as many variables as practical.
The point of both is based on something that any fan of this blog has surely read before: all other things being equal, healthy, happy yeast make good beer, and stressed yeast produce off flavors. Want to avoid off flavors? Don’t make any in the first place.
Again, you can make beer, and beer that tastes good a variety of ways. This has just been my experience with Marshall’s method. I put too much time, money, and effort into this hobby to not sweat the small stuff!
Malcom, so I’m definitely not trying to come off as argumentative. Every brewer has their own “DNA” if you will, and do what works!
I just wanted to post my experience for anyone considering this method. I don’t see it as a shortcut or compromise from a quality standpoint. It produces a legit lager, true to style, no less “lager-y” than the traditional method.
– Josh
The world may never know… And I am okay with that.
Any thoughts on using this method on darker Dunkle type beer?
I’ve done it many times, works great!
I just finished my 2nd lager and I had to dump the batch due to off flavors (butterscotch). I’m trying to figure out what is the most likely culprit. I boil by belgian pils malt for 60 min. (have not tried 90 min yet) My next suspect is that I lower the wort temp to 55F and pitched one pack of WLP830 yeast, no starter, just the one pack, and let it ferment for 2 weeks and finish around 60F. Do you have a suggestion how to reduce my off flavors?
SG 1.050
If you pitched a single pack of 830 at 55F without a starter, it’s possible your yeast was pretty stressed, which can lead to the production of diacetyl, which warmer temps are purported to help drive off, though it sounds like you never got the beer warmer than 60F.
My suggestion would be to either (1) follow the procedure outlined in this article or (2) do like I’ve been doing lately and ferment with lager yeasts at ale temperatures 🙂
Thanks for the advice Marshall, my 1st lager I used WLP800. Everything the same as above except that I pitched one pack at 68F left it for 24hrs until it was nicely fermenting and slowly dropped the temp down to 55F over two days. This batch had a much stronger butterscotch taste and unfortunately was dumped out….. Sounds to me that you feel its from yeast stress and not the 60min boil time.
Why do you ferment with lager yeast at ale temperature? Just to have a lower yeast pitch rate? Because using the method stated above already makes grain-to-glass times pretty low
By the way, I already said it somewhere in a previous comment, but I have to say it again: this lager method is great! 🙂
More yeast. I used mangrove Jack’s bohemian ×2 and came out grate
For my next attempt I think I will try your overpitch experiment with 4-5 packs of dry yeast. Hopefully that will do the trick.
Haha! Do what you want, but I wouldn’t waste the money on all that yeast when other xBmts have shown 34/70 and WLP800 can be fermented at ale temps while maintaining lager character.
Marshall, thanks for the info. I’ll try to find your the page on 34/70 & 800 at Ale temps… it sounds much easier than fermenting at 55F for two weeks!
If you want to go traditional, you can use the mrmalty.com pitching rate calculator to determine how much dry yeast is needed and ferment it cold. That always worked for me in the past. It usually is at least 2-3 packs. I think probably 2 packs would work in a modest lager just fine, maybe even 1.
Thanks Aaron
Tom E, all I can say is I’ve been brewing off and on for 15 + years and Brulosophy’s quicker lagering method has changed my brewing methods for the better. I follow this method to the letter. I make a 5 gal. batch every 3 weeks using Belgien Pils (60 min boil). I pitch with 1 un-hydrated packet of 34/70. My family, friends and neighbors rave about this beer. Clear as a bell, beautiful lacing foam and spot on flavor. Thanks to Brulosophy’s, I’ve become a much better, consistent brewer. This method works!!!!
Billy, that’s great news, thanks for sharing. I’m already looking to buy some 34/70. I’ll never ferment again below 60F. I always thought dry yeast was inferior to liquid yeasts. But I’m going to make the move after reading these blogs.
Hi Brulospher I am making a modified Alt Bier from Brewing Classic Styles with WLP036. Was going to follow your method to the letter with wort chilled to 10C (I have an 800ml starter) and set initial fementation temp to 12C. Jamil says to start fementation at 16C – can I start this low. Will fermentation stall ….
Or can I follow your method to the letter for this yeast. White Labs also have fermentation higher – my OG is 1.050/1.051 and I am on all my numbers. Please help …..
With 036, I’d just ferment at 66F and call it good.
Thank you – apologies did not see this until today. Pitched yesterday followed first 2 steps and cooled wort to 10C and then turned up regulator to 13C. Should this be 66F and follow the rest of the process when 50% attenuated. Worried at 13C fermentation will not start – this yeast was not very active in starter.
Hi! Im trying to apply this method with a 1056 OG bohemian pilsner using WLP800 yeast. Seven days have passed since pitching at 50F and gravity it’s at 1036 when it was supposed to be near 1028. Should I be concerned?
Thank you for sharing all this awesome information!
I wouldn’t be concerned at all and raise the temp to 68F. In fact, I now ferment with WLP800 like it’s an ale yeast… 😬
https://brulosophy.com/2015/06/22/fermentation-temperature-pt-3-lager-yeast-exbeeriment-results/
My first attempt at a Pilsner using this method is going great – just reached step 3 – ramp down. Nobody can taste any off flavours in the sample and it’s brilliantly clear.
Looks like I’ll be bottling this at some point next week.
I brewed a California lager this weekend. Pitched 2L of WLP810. This is a warm tolerant lager yeast so I pitched at 62 degrees. OG was 1.044. Well after only 2 days my SG was 1.022, so I began ramp-up. How warm can I go? Right now I’m at 69 degrees, should I go higher?
These days, I ferment my What’re We Here For Cal Common recipe with W-34/70 at 66˚F and think it’s the best it’s ever been! I’ve fermented with 810 at 68˚F and noticed no real difference compared to fermenting at 58˚F.
Sorry to waste your time. I just realized that I should be following the Hybrid profile for this yeast. I will take it a few degrees warmer.
No waste of my time!
I’ve seen your mention of gelatin finings here and elsewhere…just stumbled across the site while on a layover. There’s another interesting method that I’ve used which IIRC Papazian put forth years ago, and that’s using 1oz or so a very finely crushed black malt added at the very end of mash (or is it boil). I haven’t used it recently because I had a brewing hiatus for awhile, but it can be used with even the palest of beers without darkening things in any significant manner. It’s a charge-based principle…the black malt has an opposite charge to the proteins and other haze-forming components. I’ll have to find my reference for it. Keep up the good work. Got my start homebrewing in ’89 and have been doing all-grain since ’93.
Gave this method a try, wyeast 2278 2L Starter but didn’t decant. Hit the SGs I thought spot on, had a slight butterscotch taste after kegging (although I really liked it but no lager awards for me…). It appears to be getting a stronger butterscotch flavor ever day, maybe I’m looking for it now but I don’t think so- it’s stronger. 2 questions, is it possible to build diacetyl after ferm complete and 2 can I pull it out of the cooler to room temps to see if will clean up. Also read you can add more yeast to clean it up? Ok 3 questions.
If the butterscotch flavor is getting stronger, I’d be concerned about a possible contamination issue, especially if you let the beer sit at the warmer temp until it was clean– that’s the whole point of that step. If you don’t mind me asking, did you use any crystal malt in the recipe?
Yes sir, crystal 15.
Hi, I’m gonna brew next saturday a 1.050 helles with your quick lagering method… with w34/70 I’m planning to conduct the primary at 11°C (then rise to 19°) : in your experience, is that temp too high? would you go lower? for about 26 liters wort 3 rehydrated packed would be enough or better 4? I’m gonna oxygenate 80 secs 1liter/min with pure O2… best regards and sorry for my terrible english
11C is not too high in my experience. In fact, I tend to ferment lagers with 34/70 at 19C these days and haven’t noticed a difference from those I fermented at 10C 🙂
If you brewing on the warmer side for say a 1045 do you think that 1 package of 34/70 would do the trick ?
I ferment with a single pack anywhere from 50-66F and it works fine.
Just kegged a schwarzbier at 20 days. Hydrometers sample was quite promising! Will report back once it’s ready to drink.
25 days and it’s tasting great. Admittedly I have nothing to judge against as it’s my first lager.
Would recommend!
Do i understand correctly that you never rack to secondary in this method? and as for the cold crash, the coldest i can achieve with my setup is around 37F… Would this just mean a longer time until things clear up or are there other potential problems you could see with this?
That’s right, no secondary. 37F will be fine, in fact if you fine with gelatin, your beer will likely be crystal clear sooner than you expect.
thanks for the quick reply Marshall! I would love to give gelatin a try… but i am married to a vegetarian so I must make do with irish moss cold crashing and time!
biofine clear works well too. it’s vegan i think
thanks for the tip, Aaron. I’ll be checking out biofine for sure!
Hey there. I have an Abita Mardi gras bock (maibock/helles) clone I made a few weeks ago. Fermented at lager temp, about 45 F, got it down to near fg, then just finishing up diacetyl rest today. Was gonna move to keg and lager, and then remembered your article that I’d seen before. Is there a way to quick lager now, or am I too far behind the curve? Og was 1069, gravity before lager is 1016, used wyeast 2308 Munich lager. Thanks for the help, and great article, just wish I’d remembered it sooner.
I view gelatin as powdered time, as it seems to do what lagering does in as little as 2-4 days. Besides that, given your higher OG, you may just want to sample every few days and start drinking when you think the beer has hit its stride. I tend to prefer fresh beer, regardless of style.
Do you just add the gelatin and lager in the keg? And do you wait to add co2 until after it tastes refined enough? Thanks for all the help!
My uncontrolled observations indicate the same. The lagering process seems to essentially involve precipitation of fine particulates in the beer that cause haze and a less clean flavor. It seems that when the particulates are tannins (from husks or hops), the beer tastes astringent and/or grassy. Other protein or yeast particulates give the beer a “muddy” flavor. Adding gelatin seems to help these proteins and polyphenols aggregate and precipitate more quickly. I think this process works better cold because I think precipitation is faster at cold temperatures, and also because some haze forming particulates are soluable at warmer temperatures.
I bottle, and recently did an experiment where I compared bottled beer that “lagered” at room temperature vs beer lagered in the fridge for 2 weeks. They came from the same batch that had been fined with gelatin in the primary for 2 days after 0 C cold crash, were bottled and conditioned at room temperature. Surprisingly, both bottles were clear, and tasted the same.
I think that by cold crashing and fining with gelatin, the haze forming aggregates are already induced to form and precipitate out of solution. So while I do think that in a batch that has been cold fined with gelatin, there is additional precipitation after bottling, that it is not really temperature dependent. I mean that non fined beer can have a chill haze that would never precipitate out at room temperature, but (cold) fined beer will continue to clear to bright even at room temperature. I suspect this is because once the chill haze is rendered insoluable by chilling, it is mostly removed by gelatin fining.
This would mean you don’t have to waste fridge space by continuing to lager cold fined beer. Obivously this is of little use to people who keg, because the keg probably needs to be cold to drink… but its useful for us bottlers!
One negative aspect of gelatin fining that I’ve noticed though is that due to the “fluffy bottoms” effect after gelatin fining, the yeast sediment at the bottom of the bottle is not compact, and is easily disturbed on pouring the beer. I’m trying to work on ways to mediate this effect. Currently I use a 34/70 strain, but I may try to see if another yeast strain would work better, or if I need to give more time from fining to bottling.
Great info. I do tend to think sedimentation is more a function of the yeast strain used, though perhaps gelatin effects all yeasts. Curious to hear what you find out!
Hello. I’m trying to follow this method. I checked yesterday at the 8.5 day mark after pitching and my 1.076 Maibock was only down to 1.049. I started it at 50 degrees and at day 6 when it was only 1.057, I bumped it to 52 degrees and then 54 degrees yesterday. Your chart said 6-10 days so I’m worried I underpitched. (1.5L starter bumped up to 3.5L starter per brewersfriend calculator. If I did it correctly, it should be enough yeast according to that). Should I be worried about how long it’s taking?
I’m not sure it’s worth worrying about at this point, as it’s possible you simply underpitched and the cool beer is slowing things down. If you don’t see any activity at the 48 hour mark, I might recommend pitching more yeast or warming the beer up to kick it into high gear.
I’m not sure I follow. 48 hours from yesterday when I sent the message? So after the 10 day mark? There is definitely activity. There’s krausen and the SG is dropping, just slowly. I’m going to check this evening and hope it’s gotten down to 50% (1.038) but at the current rate, I’m not optimistic. I guess if the reason it’s going so slowly is that I under pitched there isn’t much I can do about it now except hope the d-rest takes care of any problems.
I’m using this method for a kolsch. Any adjustments that need to be made?
Also, I want to rack the beer for clarifying purposes (didn’t use hop bags and had a lot of sludge), when js the best time to do that?
For Kölsch, I just ramp to 70F after 2-3 days of fermenting.
From both a physics and experiential perspective, racking to a secondary vessel will have no impact on clarity. When racking to your keg or bottling bucket, leave behind all that sludge, it’s that simple.
Thanks Marshall, I’ve used this method on my last three lagers. A martzen, schwartzbier, and a pilsner, and it shortened up the lagering time tremendously. Lagers are no longer tank space killers.
Next time try fermenting win lager yeast at Ale temps… crazy, I know, but it works so well!
how many lager strains have you tried fermenting out at ale temps? did they all work well? didn’t your xbmts show people can tell the difference b/w ale and lager temps with lager yeast? that doesn’t mean they preferred the lager more though of course.
WLP800 was non-significant.
W-34/70 at 50F vs. 70F was non-significant.
W-34/70 at 60F vs. 82F was significant; interestingly, 7 preferred warm ferm and only 2 preferred cool ferm.
Min-xBmts:
I’ve fermented WLP940 and WLP833 warm and those beers came out fine.
Thanks for the summary reminder. seems like the trend for warm is pretty strong!
Havent you tried s-23 and 189 also ?
Can you describe your blowoff / airlock setup when you cold crash the beer? How do you prevent sanitizer and/or oxygen from entering the carboy?
I don’t do anything. I’ve been using s-type airlocks lately, they seem to have less suckback.
you can drill a bigger hole in a rubber stopper, jam in a plastic barbed elbow, and then run a tube from the elbow to your CO2 regulator on very low pressure. This will allow CO2 to go back in as it chills. Works well.
Another option is to have a blowoff setup that pushes CO2 into a jug that gets pushed into a second jug. When the beer is chilled, it will pull CO2 from the first jug into your carboy and pull sanitizer from the second jug into the first jug.
Do you have a drill press? I’ve tried drilling into rubber stoppers a few times with my standard hand-held drill and it was basically impossible, ruined a few stoppers actually.
Yes, I have a drill press, but I make the holes with a cork boring machine designed for the purpose. You can also buy a cheap hand-set that bores holes. It takes longer but will work. use glycerol on it for lubrication.
I’ve heard freezing the stoppers helps as well.
Used your method for a Schwarzbier recently Marshall and it came out great. Took 2nd in a local comp and it’s made this year’s NHC final round! Thanks for the great tips on lager fermentation!
Congrats! These days I wholly believe it’s much less about the process and much more about the brewer. Nice work 🙂
Thanks!
Hi Marshall. Your site convinced me to take the plunge as previously I’d stayed away from lager thinking it was too hard / too long. I’m now sat drinking a mega octoberfest 2 weeks after brewday!! Thanks a lot for posting all this insightful advice!
Hello Marshall, I just finished up building my Black Box and I want to thank you for your website and podcast in their entirety. After completing the black box I began searching info on the fermentation programming. Ending up on this page I was curious to find out if,
1. Do you still use your black box?
2. If so is the above mentioned “Lager Method” executed using the black box?
After finding your site and subscribing I have taken a virtual 180 in the way I’m looking at brewing. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, thanks for what you do,
Marshall, do you use your hydrometer to take sg readings thru out fermentation or do you have another one of your wonderful process tips to share with us? I find it hard to waste that much wort when taking my reading.
I usually wait until signs of fermentation are absent before taking hydrometer samples, but at the same time, I don’t mind pulling samples because it’s fun to taste 🙂
In that case, how do you establish when the attenuation is at 50% to start ramping up the temp? Or do you go by your approximation (i.e. ~5 days)?
Hi Marshall,
Would there be any harm in skipping the lagering step (3)? As you mentioned at the beginning of the post, most of us lager for clarity. To date, the best beer I’ve ever had was a Helles at the Brauhaus am Markt in Kaiserslautern Germany, and it is not clear at all. It looks more like a hefe. Anyway, I am currently in the process of trying this for the first time. I am using saflager w-34/70, primary fermentation low 50’s (using ice water bottles in a bucket). Plan to ramp up temperatures after 7 days or when 50% att. reached. What I would like to do is just leave the beer in the sixties for another two weeks, which is essentially what I do with all my ales, and then just bottle it. Any reasons skipping the lagering step could be detrimental?
Thanks,
Jonathan
I rarely even use this method anymore and just ferment my lagers at ale temperatures, which means I don’t really do a real lager step. That said, I’d think you’d be fine skipping the long lagering, especially if you don’t care about looks 🙂
Thanks Marshall. And I really appreciate all the great work you guys do. I’m also really enjoying the new podcast. I think this fast lager process would be a great topic for the podcast. Reading your blogs are wonderful, but the podcast has a way of capturing and convincing that the blog doesn’t have. I listen to the blog (and other brewing commentary) usually while I’m brewing, and I think it really resonates more.
Cheers!
Jonathan
Hi Marshall,
Suppose I want to harvest an reuse the yeast. I would harvest them after kegging (at 0 C). So far so good.
Isn’t there a chance the lager yeast would change their flavour profile since they undergo the diacetyl rest and spend some time at 20 C?
I know you are fermenting lagers at ale temps now and use one satchet of w34/70, but I am kind of a thrifty person and don’t wanna spend 2 satchets of w34/40 each time I brew lager.
thanks
Richard
While I’ve not experienced anything like that, I suppose there’s always a chance the flavor profile would change. I’m personally doubtful, assuming the yeast isn’t contaminated, it’d be enough for anyone to tell, at least in the first few iterations.
Hi Marshall!
I have a Stella clone Lager in the primary for about a week and a half so far that is fermenting at a controlled 52 degrees (started 1.045 and is now 1.025). Can I increase the temp for the diacetyl rest, how long should I do that?
Im interesting in harvesting the yeast… when should I do that? Right before kegging? Is it bad to be on the yeast for that long?
Definitely can increase temp, I would.
I harvest right after kegging. Never had issues with the beer being on the yeast that long.
Great!! Thanks for you input!
Will the gelatin affect the yeast? Or will I still be able to harvest after gelatin?
So I can warm up for about a week until it hits fg and then move everything to cool down, use the gelatin, and then after being there for a bit I can get and Harvest the yeast? Sound right? Thanks!!
If you had to bottle with tour quick lager method, would you add yeast such as cbc 1 or is there enough yeast in the beer to perform refermentation in the bottle?
I would not add more yeast.
This is not strictly related to the lager method but to all methods and XBMTs on the wonderful site.
I see a lot of people questioning the scientific value of the XBMTs and claiming that the results don’t apply to real life and homebrewing. I am not in the positions to judge that but here are some of the things I learned from Brulosophy (things that I also tested in real life – and they never failed):
– W34-70 produces a great, clean and quick lager when fermented at 18 Celsius. You can also get away with pitching just one (yes, just one!) pack in a 23 liters batch (normal OG)
– lagers are not boring – in fact my latest pilsner is one of the best beer I’ve brewed and also one of the simplest
– you can pitch your yeast 1-2 degrees above or below your target and it wouldn’t matter
– taking a portion of the yeast starter for future use beats the hell out of washing/rinsing the yeast cake
– the yeast from the starter can be stored and used even after 6 months and it will take off like a rocket – yes, it doesn’t die 🙂
– hot side aeration is a myth – so I whirlpool with the paddle and a drill now
– gelatin is the s**t if you like clear beer
I might have forgotten some facts but for all of the reasons above a great thanks to all the Brulosophy contributors. Keep on doing this and ignore the non believers 🙂
In 15 years off homebrewing I once brewed a lager ( many years ago ) It took far too long to produce something drinkable.
After reading this topic I thought let’s have a go again so I brewed a 5,6G Bock @16,3 brix – ( 1064 ) last saterday.
Set the fermentation temp @ 57F and added 2 packages off Frementis S23
Yesterday evening it reached 11,5 brix (1029 ) so I ramped up t0 62F
This morning again to 64F and tonight I’ll set it to 66F
If all goes like I think it will be finished upcoming saterday ( thats 7 days!!!) then 48 hours cold crash means 9 or 10 days completely finished.
If this produces a good beer it’s amazing
Well fermentation finished today ended up @ 8,2brix (1014) sample smelled and tasted wunderfull crashing now
Currently sipping on a newly tapped 3 week old bock that tastes wonderful. I love this method, and am brewing a ton more lagers that I used to. I have found that a good yeast helps a ton and have been using the Carlsburg strain almost exclusively. Thanks for your passion for debunking antiquated thinking and helping us brew better (and quicker) beer!
Sipping on a 4 week old lager. This method works, and works very well. I cannot belive how quick you can go grain to glass. Amazed.
Got a fast lager BrewPi profile set up and this is what I will be using from now on.
Cheers and happy brewing!!
9 days old german pilsner hit 1.006 and cleaning up at 64 degrees. Going to start crash cooling this week and keg fin/keg by next weekend. Have been taking sample readings through the entire process and so far this method is right on the money! already ordered ingredients to piggy back this batch with oktoberfest utilizing some WLP833 Bock yeast.
From a novice, a completely stupid question: what is “attenuation”?
The percentage that measures the conversion of sugar to alcohol and CO2.
I recently brewed a schwarzbier. OG was 1.064. I pitched 2 packets of 34/70 and fermented at around 57-60 (as cold as i could get) and it was down to 1.018 4 days later. should i ramp to 68 for a day and then lager or ferment at 60 for another week or so until fermentation completes and then lager? I also read with quicker lager fermentations you only have to “lager” for about a week and can then bottle or keg – any truth to that?
I’d personally ramp to 70F and leave it until FG is reached, probably just 2-3 more days, then keg, cool for 12 hours or so, fine with gelatin, carbonate, and drink!
thanks for the quick response! if i don’t have the ability to keg is it best to bottle and lager after conditioning or cold condition and then bottle?
Brewed a Vienna Lager a week and a half ago and then my in-laws came to visit for the week so I didn’t get a chance to check the gravity until day 8 after pitch.
OG was 1.048 and pitched 2 packs of non-rehydrated 34/70 at 52F. When I checked the gravity day 8 after pitch it was about 1.013 so I started the temp ramp up.
Question then is whether I was too late. It did appear to be settling out. Not as hazy as it was earlier on and a decent cake on the bottom. Today, day 10, I have the regulator set to 66 and I’m still getting some airlock activity (~40sec between bubbles).
Could being too far past 50% attenuation create any issues? Or is it fine and the yeast will still do their cleanup regardless. I didn’t expect the beer to basically finish out in a week at 52°!
Thanks,
Ryan
Definitely not too late.
Thanks Marshall. Love the podcast and all the work you guys do. Keep it up!
Do you find yourself using this quick lager method or the warm fermentation method based off your multiple exbeeriments?
Definitely warm fermentation, it’s just easier, takes less time, and with particular yeast strains, actually seems to produce cleaner more lager-like beer.