NOTE: The method I discuss here includes ideas similar to those proposed by Ludwig Narziss and Greg Noonan long before I came along, a couple dudes often credited for inspiring the public to brew and drink more delicious lager beer!
I’m a lover of all things lager- Márzen, Schwarzbier, Helles, and Pilsner are some of favorite styles. As a homebrewer, I initially avoided making lager beer due to my inability to precisely control fermentation temperature. Once I finally got my chamber setup and made a couple lagers using more traditional fermentation schedules, I found myself avoiding them due to how long they took to finish. I also began wondering how I might be able to hasten the process. I had learned that with precise control of my temperature, I could turn most ales around in 2 weeks and wondered why I couldn’t use this control to do the same with lager beers. I made a couple batches that came out surprisingly well, played with the method for a few months, and was gradually convincing myself the days of 2 month lagers were behind me. After numerous successful batches, I happen to catch an episode of The Session on The Brewing Network where Mike “Tasty” McDole mentioned how he takes lager grain-to-glass in 2 weeks using precise control of fermentation temperature. This was validating, particularly since I was aiming for a much less anxiety provoking 3-4 week turnaround.
German brewers began making lager beers long before the advent of controllable refrigeration, fermenting and conditioning their beer in caves that maintained a fairly consistent 45°-55°F. They also brewed with the seasons, hence beers like Märzen, which was only brewed between September 29 and April 23 with consumption usually commencing in late Summer through October. The point I’m trying to make here is that the long-term fermentation and aging appears to be mostly a function of the inability to control environmental temperature.
A few things we’ve learned over the last couple centuries of brewing is that yeast generally works slower at cooler temperatures and faster at warmer temperatures, most esters and phenolics are produced during the growth phase of fermentation, which in my experience lasts about 4-5 days for cool fermented lagers, and beer lagers faster at colder temperatures. I know, there’s supposedly something else that magically happens to a beer over time besides just clarity, but let’s be real here, clarity is what most of us are waiting for as the indication that a beer is ready to drink. And if I’m being totally honest, I sort of enjoy the very minimal perceptible changes that occur in a beer over the 2-3 weeks I have it on tap.
| THE METHOD |
Step 1: Primary Fermentation
Chill wort to pitching temp of 48°-53°F (9°-12°C), pitch adequately sized starter (decanted), set regulator to initial fermentation temp between 50°-55°F (10°-13°C), and leave the beer to ferment until it is at least 50% attenuated. I’ve found the time this takes is dependent on 2 primary factors:
1. Original Gravity: a 1.080 Doppelbock is going to take longer to reach 50% attenuation than a 1.048 Helles.
2. Yeast Type: in my experience, rehydrated dry lager yeasts take 12-36 hours longer to show signs of active fermentation compared to liquid yeasts built up in starters or even slurry harvested from a prior batch.
I originally advised leaving the fermenting beer at primary temp for 5 days assuming folks were checking SG prior to making temp changes. This was a mistake on my part. While it is possible even high OG beers will reach 50% attenuation in this amount of time, I’ve heard from a couple folks who experience differently. As such, here are my new better-safe-than-sorry recommendations:
| OG of Wort | Yeast Type | Approximate Primary Time |
|---|---|---|
| ≤ 1.060 OG | Liquid | 4-7 days |
| ≤ 1.060 OG | Dry | 5-8 days |
| ≥ 1.061 | Liquid | 6-10 days |
| ≥ 1.061 | Dry | 7-14 days |
Another factor worth considering is your preferred primary fermentation temperature, as yeast is going to work a bit faster at 54°F (12°C) compared to 48°F/ (9°C). The original 5 day recommendation will likely hold true for most folks, as it has for me, I just want to emphasize the importance of taking SG measurements prior to making temp changes.
Step 2: The Ramp Up
Once 50% attenuation is reached, remove the probe from the side of the fermentor so it measures ambient temp in the chamber and start bumping the regulator up 5°F every 12 hours until it reaches 65°-68°F (18°-20°C). Allow the beer to remain at this temp until fermentation is complete and the yeast have cleaned-up after themselves, which can take anywhere from 4 to 10 days.
Alternate Option
Keep the temp probe attached to the fermentor and forgo the incremental temperature increases but immediately setting your regulator to 65°-68°F (18°-20°C). While I still prefer the more gentle approach to temp increases, I’ve heard from many people have had great success using this slightly less time-consuming approach.
Step 3: The Ramp Down
When FG is stable and no diacetyl or acetaldehyde is detected in the beer, begin ramping the temp down in 5°-8°F increments every 12 hours or so until it reaches 30°-32°F (-1°-0°C). Allow the beer to remain at this temp for 3-5 days, during which it will begin to drop clear.
Alternate Option 1
Setting the regulator to 30°-32°F (-1°-0°C) without gradually stepping the temp down will shave 2-3 days off of the entire process. Many brewers have done this with positive results, myself included, though I still tend to prefer the original method if only to reduce the amount of airlock fluid that gets sucked into the beer as it crashes.
Alternate Option 2
If super bright beer is something you pine for, as I do, and you’re okay with putting animal products in your beer, as I am, consider adding gelatin once the temp of the beer has reached 50°F (10°C). In my experience, this has significantly decreased the amount of time required for the beer to clear to commercial levels, I usually end up kegging 24-48 hours after adding the gelatin.
Step 4: Packaging & Storage
Once the beer is clear, it’s ready to be packaged, the process of which is obviously different depending on whether one uses kegs or bottles. Yes, bottle conditioning is absolutely possible with this method.
For Those Who Keg…
Simply transfer the cold and clear beer to your keg, place it in your keezer on gas, and leave it for 3+ days before enjoying! Using my typical kegging/carbonation method in conjunction with gelatin, I’ve found the beer is usually ready for consumption after about 5 days of “lagering” in my keezer, while others swear their beers peak after 2 weeks or so of cold storage. This is likely an issue of subjective preference mixed with a sprinkle of confirmation bias, but regardless, do what you works best for you!
For Those Who Bottle…
Use a trusted priming sugar calculator to determine the amount of your preferred fermentable to use; adding extra yeast is unnecessary, even if you fined with gelatin. Place the primed bottles in an environment that maintains a fairly consistent 68°-72°F (20°-23°C) and allow them to carbonate for 2-3 weeks. Once carbonated, I recommend placing multiple bottles in the fridge to “bottle lager” for 5+ days before enjoying, as this will encourage the precipitation of most particulate matter, providing you a clear and delicious lager beer.
| EVIDENCE |
To the skeptics out there or those who feel anxious questioning convention, I understand completely, believe me. I know it’s not easy trusting some dude you’ve never met, but I mean it when I say the many lager beers I’ve made using this method have tasted exactly how they were brewed to taste, no different than those I made in the past using the traditional drawn-out method. If you’ve been holding off from making lager beer because of the time commitment, consider giving this method a shot, I have a feeling you’ll be brewing many more lagers in the future if you do.
Cheers!
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597 thoughts on “Lager Method”
for me its about 18hr lag or so, then i count from there.
I am going to an American Lager tonight. HBS put it together and it came with one pack of s23 lager. I called and the say one pack is plenty and no need for a starter. I am going to follow your method as close as possible. Do you think the one pack will get it done? I have a Grolsch recipe I am to do next week but will make a starter for the Danish liquid yeast as called for.
Yeah, I think that single pack will likely be fine, though this may go against the more conventional opinion. I would recommend rehydrating the yeast for about 15 minutes prior to pitching just so a bunch don’t die immediately upon pitching (I’ve heard this happens).
I am trying your method for the first time and making the leap from ales to lagers. I just hit 50% attenuation and I a, ramping up with the probe reading ambient temp. My question is, when I hit FG and ramp down, does the probe stay reading ambient temp or do I reattach the probe to the fermenter? Thanks for all your great info, you have taken the fear out of making a lager.
I’ve actually done it both ways and it really doesn’t matter, the beer will be good regardless! I tend to leave it unattached.
+1 on single pack. Personal preference but I like to rehydrate also.
Thanks I am too far from hbs to get another pack anyhow so pitch I will. Got the mash tun sitting at 150. Should be 148 but heck I will most likely lose a degree or two. Going to be boiling in an hr or just a bit more.
Got it in the fermenter sitting at 49 degrees. Looks like I can see a fine line of bubbles along the shoulder of the carboy, so it’s on it’s way. I am using an old time cast iron tub with a cold water bath about eight inch’s deep. It is holding temp steady as if I had a control on it. Pretty sure with an ice bath I can get to 33 or real close with some 2 liter or coffee can size ice blocks.
I have it at 65 now for the d rest. Going to take it to 30 starting Friday and plan to leave it for a week. I am a little confused on carbing. I am going to bottle this and use 1 cup priming sugar. Do I need to then move to room temp or do I continue to lager in the bottle at cold temps.
After the 1 week lager period, bottle as usual then leave the bottled beers at room temp. They may take a bit longer to carb up than ale, but they will eventually, and then you’ll have a bunch of delicious lager beer on your hands.
Thanks that is what I am hoping for. Going to start a Danish Lager this week end, My starter is kicking in real good.
how do the beers fermented with this method compare to the same recipe fermented using you hybrid yeast technique (e.g. using WLP029 at 58F)?
Great question. I’ve made the same Helles recipe using WLP830 and WLP029 with their respective ferm schedules. They definitely tasted different, neither were bad, but most people, myself included, actually preferred the 029 beer. Take this with a huge grain of salt, as this was not a “controlled” xBmt, the beers were made a couple months apart and we chose based on our memory of the 029 beer (which I’ve made many times).
Have you tried this without the diacetyl rest? Since you are pitching cold, in theory, you shouldn’t need one. I suppose this is yeast strain dependent, but it might be a good experiment one day.
I’d be super interested to see a source for the idea that pitching cool negates the need for a diacetyl rest, I’ve never heard that. Either way, the method I’ve written about is based almost solely on one’s ability too raise temps, as it speeds up the activity of the yeast thereby significantly reducing the grain-to-glass time. I have fermented lager traditionally and it took nearly 3 weeks at 50°F for the SG to drop to terminal, then another 3-4 weeks for the beer to lager, hence the reason I started developing this quicker method. I do have plans to compare a traditionally fermented lager to one fermented quicker. Cheers!
The diacetyl will reduce as the beer matures, even without a rest. Since you are pitching cold, less diacetyl should be less to begin with. So I was wondering if there was still a way to do this very cool accelerated lager method without the rest. Here is one source about the pitching temp and diacetyl.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers#Cold_vs._Warm_pitching
Check it out and let me know if you try it.
I’m sure you can, it may just take longer.
Finally I got my fermentation chamber and temp controller set up, so it was time to try this method. I made 3 gallon batch of czech style low OG dark lager with 1 packet of hydrated W34/70 dry yeast. Pitched 10 days ago and now lowering temp to 34F. This yeast seems very sensitive to temperature changes as I have made 7 batches with poor temperature control and only 1 of them came out good. So I’m really curious how this one turns out! Going to bottle this batch and will report back in 3 weeks.
I look forward to hearing how this one turns out!
Hi, my ferment fridge will only go down to 36-38F not the 30F you recommend, do you think your method will still work or require some adjustment?
It will work totally fine, don’t even sweat it! The clearing will occur even quicker if you fine with gelatin 🙂
Hi,
Great article i must give this a go! Do yo care for sharing your recipie for the dortmunder above? 🙂
Oh my, that was nearly 2 years and 100+ batches ago, and I’m not currently on my BeerSmith computer. If I recall correctly, it was very simple, something like 80% Pils, 15% Vienna, and 5% Melanoidin malt; hopped appropriately with Mittelfruh; fermented with WLP830 German Lager. OG was around 1.062, mash at 150°F, and follow the quick lager ferm schedule. If you want more precision, shoot me an email and I’ll get you the details. Cheers!
I love Celebrator Doppelbock. It is perhaps my favorite lager and dark beer all in one. However, it is 6.7% ABV and most recipes I’ve seen call for 2-3 months from grain to glass. Is there anyway your method would work on a bigger beer like this? Perhaps is you added a few extra days each to the primary ferment, diacetyl rest and lagering phase it might work out. I’m thinking maybe 4 weeks total. Have you done a higher ABV lager with this method before? If so, how did it turn out and if not, what are your thoughts?
Thanks, Aaron
P.S. I love the site and have been pimping it relentlessly.
Hey Aaron, thanks for the support! The biggest beer I’ve made using this method was the slightly-higher-than-style 6.4% Dortmunder Export in the pics you can see on this page. I’ve not personally made a Doppelbock, but my hunch is the longer conditioning time is perhaps just as much a function of the darker malts used as it is the higher ABV. I’ve heard from a few folks who have successfully made bigger beers with this method. If it were me, I might stretch each step out by a day or 2, and if it doesn’t taste ready at the end, I’d have no problem sitting on it for a few weeks to mellow out. Cheers!
Thanks for this article! Love it! I’ve quite recently started to brew a couple lager beers and really enjoy it. I’ve tried something similar to this quick-lager-thing but a lot of yeast is remaining on the surface of the beer after 5-6 days of coldlagering on 32F, leaving A LOT of sediment in the bottles. Have you experienced something similar due to this shorter fermention times?
If you’re certain you’ve reached terminal gravity and that krausen ring persists, you might try giving the fermentor a bit of a bump/swirl, which I’ve found can break up those proteins, making it easier to fall out of solution. Cheers!
Thanks for your quick answer! I will try to give the fermentation an couple of days more from now on. But it was finished fermenting from what I could tell. There was also a lot of small, but visable flocculated yeast clumps still floating around in the solution, although I did a cold crash. Could this also be an indication of still active yeast you think?
Small yeast chunks moving around is almost certainly a sign of active fermentation. It’s always good to check SG before dropping the temp, just to be sure.
Hey Marshall, what would your Black Box program be running this method with your Munich Helles recipe?
I use my hybrid profile since that recipe uses WLP029. You can definitely use a traditional strain with my lager profile too 🙂
My second time using this method this time with a Maibock and I must say it is TASTY!!!!!
I brewed it Jan 31, keged on Feb 18th and half of it is gone… Thank you, thank you and thank you for this blog…. keep up the good work!!!!
Neto – I am very interested in your experience with the Maibock. I recently did a Maibock also using this method but I have to admit i was lazy and set it on autopilot using the lager blackbox profile and didn’t check any gravities during the process. Wondering how you did yours, what your recipe was, and what your thoughts are at this point on what you’d change if you could do it again.
rzwahr – I must also admit to the laziness I did not check gravities during fermentation but I hit my OG and FG spot on, I followed the schedule to the T with great results. This is a great lagering method and I will keep on using it. The only change I would make is (for this style of beer) I will let it lager an extra week before kegging (if I have the patience). This is my recipe: 13 lbs. German Pilsen
0.5 lbs. Weyermann Carahell
Sacch’ Rest: 152° F for 60 minutes
Mashout: 170° F for 10 minutes
BOIL ADDITIONS & TIMES
1 oz German Perle (60 min)
1 oz. Hersbrucker (60 min)
1 oz. Hersbrucker (15 min)
Wyeast Oktoberfest Lager blend (my LHBS did not have Wyeast 2124 Bohemian Lager Yeast)
Hi there! I friend of mine recomended this blog and defintely this article has made my day!
I like the method and I understand all steps but now I’m doing my experiment on a IPL and I have to dry hop for the aromas. I was thinking so to do the next proces: fermenting primari -> diacetil rest-> laggering -> let temperature rise to 20ºC and dry hop -> cold to 1º and use gelatin-> kegging and botteling.
Althoug now i’m just in the second week of lagering, i’m gonna go for the raising of temperature and the dry hop.
For futures batches definetively i’m gonna use your method but let me ask you a question. During the “ramp up” is maybe too early to make a dry hop? Should i wait until there’s no diacetil and FG is estable?
Thanks!
Man, I’m not really sure how to answer your question, mainly because I’ve never made an IPL and haven’t really thought about how I’d go about dry hopping it. Shooting from the hip, I think I’d probably do as you said and wait until there was no diacetyl and the FG was stable. Sorry for the lacking response. Cheers!
No problem, i’m doing this way and i let you know the results, next week i’m keging some (9 liters) the other will be bottled. Thanks and congrats for your blog! Cheers
How do you know when there is no diacetyl?
Without lab testing, when you don’t smell/taste anything resembling butterscotch.
When you say “until it is at least 50% attenuated”, do you mean, for example, with a 1.050 OG, wait until one reads a 1.025 SG, or with a 1.050 OG and yeast capable of 75% attenuation, wait until one reads a 1.031 SG (50-(50 * 0.75 * 0.50)) ? Thanks!
Good question. I usually go with apparent attenuation, which is the first of the options you mentioned– 50% of 1.050 = 1.025. But, I’m more of a “beer reader” than I am a “beer measurer,” I added that piece for the folks who prefer greater precision or who make a lot of higher OG lager. I start bumping the temp when I notice the krausen and observable fermentation activity start to decline, which is usually within 4-5 days; I understand some folks were having difficulty with this, hence the addition of attenuation piece. Hope that helps!
50% AA is much more towards the end. 50% through the fermentation goes very quickly.
I’m trying this out on a doppelbock. Quick question though — if I took a reading during the boil and got 27 plato (refractometer “with ATC), and then after cooling and transferring got 23 plato from the top of the kettle, could I have had wort stratification? I took my samples with a spoon so there could have been some evaporative effects as well (old sample read about 5 plato higher than fresh one, and was almost solid). I’m planning on putting these up against Sean Terrill’s refractometer calculator for f.g. and RI.
Anyways I’ll let you know how this turns out in terms of aging. I started it the monday before thanksgiving and I’m just ramping up to 66 (fermentation has been slower).
the schedule is really about what OG, what temp for fermentation, and the ADT (apparent attenuation) you want to target. e.g. for my 1.053 pils, using wlp830 at 49F, it took 6 days to get to 60% ADT – that’s when i ramp up the temp. for my maibock I just ran on this lager schedule, it was 1.065, using wlp835 at 47-48F. 7 days for me to get to 62% ADT, and then ramp up until 62F where I hold for another 7 days before putting it back in the freezer for cold crash schedule. for me, the extra attenuation followed by longer rest is really producing very clean lagers.
This is a wonderful piece of research that changed the world of lager brewing for many of us. I would like to apply similar methods to aging high gravity beers. My current thinking as to the aging of high gravity beers is that it is a combination of biological and chemical reactions that meld the flavors and soften the alcohol bite. I propose aging at a much higher temp than the traditional aging temps that are based on the temps found in caves, etc. Both chemical and biological processes are generally much faster at warm temps. I’m thinking that cold crashing to remove dead yeast cells, followed by warm aging in the 80’s F, done in a sealed carboy in a dark environment, possibly dry hopping and / or utilizing a hop tea near the end of this process might yield good results. Your thoughts on this are of interest to me.
I think that’d make for an interesting experiment, absolutely! That said, my thoughts on this are as good as the next guys, as I’ve never tried it, the only think I’ve to offer would be my own conjecture. I’ll definitely have to try this out sometime, and if you do first, please let me know how it goes!
First off – thanks for this awesome website!
Second – I have two temperature controlled vessels. My keezer, and a mini fridge I use for fermentation.
Unfortunately, that means if I want the temperature lower than ~38 degrees (i.e. cold crashing), the only vessel that can handle this is the keezer – which I use to serve beer out of.
So my question is – will I see any negative effects trying to cold crash at 38 degrees?
The only way I could cold crash lower than that would be to remove all of my serving kegs out of the keezer during this time – which would be a pain in the ass!
I don’t think you’ll have a problem at all! If anything, it may take slightly longer for everything to drop out of solution, but my hunch is it wouldn’t be that big of a difference. Cheers!
My lag time is around 3 days. Do I count that as the primary fermentation time, or after I actually notice fermentation? I use a ss conical so I can only go by the air lock.
I’m assuming you use dry yeast? Either way, once you start to see active bubbling in the airlock, you may want to give it another 2-3 days before ramping temps.
No, liquid yeast. Usually 833, German Bock. I hate checking the conical for activity, but after 60 hours I get a little impatient. The beer turns out fine though.
Thanks for the reply.
Cheers,
Chris
Just tried this method on a maibock and got to FG in 14 days pitching 1L of slurry not decanted. Was very impressed so far. In lagering stage now with keg and prob going to give it a couple weeks due to the high ester content in finished beer. Also used gelatin and quite clear after 24hrs prior to kegging.
Thanks for sharing this – I’m looking forward to trying it again with a helles and not having to wait until 2016 to drink it.
I just ran a helles bock (maibock) thru the schedule, like all the rest its very clean and a great beer:
Helles Bock :OG 1.065 FG 1.014
2/21 starter pitched at 1pm in 46F wort. temp hold set for 48F
2/27: gravity 1.029. raised temp to 52F (+ day 6)
3/1: gravity 1,020 , 67%ADT . bring out to free rise to 62F for one week. (+ day 8)
3/5-3/6: check gravity (day +14) 1.014. cold crash started (+ day 12)
3/14: keg and gelatin, then lager (+ day 21)
3/20: carb 12.5 psi for week
I’m brewing my first 6 lagers using this method. The first two had an OG of 1.050 with Wyeast 2006 (1.6L starters stepped up 3 times). It took 8 and 9 days for the first and second batch to hit 1.025, where I raised them to 65F. The first/second batch have been at 65*F for 12 and 10 days. The first batch’s OG has been at 1.0175 for 4 days; the second’s OG is at 1.020 for 4 days. Should I just start lagering these or would you recommend doing something extra to knock down the OG a few more points? Regards.
Wyeast 2206*
Hmm. I’d be inclined to keep the temp warm and maybe give the fermentors a gentle swirl to rouse the yeast.
I will be giving this method a whirl on my next lager batch, a Bohemian Pilsner recipe. From reading through it, it’s not actually too much different from my usual method. The only differences I can see are raising the temp a bit higher, and at 50% attenuation rather than at the 75% I normally do, and the reduced time spent chilled before packaging. My previous lager batches have all been ready to be dropped to 0C around the 14-16 day mark – it was only me leaving them at that temp for 5-6 weeks before bottling that extended the turnaround time.
Looking forward to trying this and I daresay I’ll be brewing a lot more lagers if it works out as well as everyone is saying. 🙂
Cheers mate!
I recently signed up for a Homebrew competition with judging on May 9th and I’ll be brewing tomorrow (April 25th). I realize 15ish days is an extremely short amount of time but I would still like to submit something in the lager/pilsner class. Any recommendations for speeding things up even further? Maybe I can make a quick clean ale and submit it in this category? All help is appreciated.
Use WLP029 fermented at 58F for 3 days then ramp to 68 until finished; crash and fine with gelatin, burst carb.
I’m currently fermenting my second Pils with this method, very pleased with the results of the first.
Any chance you could write up a similar article on how you ferment your lagers with WLP029? Its not 100% clear to me from the Lager vs Hybrid article.
You’re not the first person to ask for a more clear write up of my fermentation schedules… I’ll have to get to that ASAP 🙂
Tried your method for a couple of different lagers, so far czech and helles, and it has worked out really well so far. I would say that you need an extra week in the keg, but it is still way better than occuping your fermentation fridge for 2 months.
Thank you, and keep the very interesting exbeeriments coming.
Hi Marshall,
First of all, thanks for creating such an informative and interesting blog/website 🙂
Secondly, I was wondering about transferring to a pressure barrel – I assume the method is pretty much the same as bottle conditioning? Cold crash for a few days then prime and leave the barrel at 20°C for a couple of weeks before chilling down to serving temp?
Any advice if not?
Cheers!
Elliott
Brighton, UK
Thanks! That’s exactly what I would do.
Hi,
I’m anxious to try your lager method. I have a question. For me is easier to get wyeast to white labs yeast. Do you think wy 2565 is a good substitute to wlp029 to make lager beers? Would use in the same temperature range?
Cheers!!
Hi mate, love your blog so much. My favorite brewing site for sure. Am trying this quick lager at the moment on a Vienna lager, am loving the time saving and is working well with my new fermostat, I was wondering though, what are the benefits of changing from the probe position from the side of the fermenter to an ambient position? Is it just that the change is faster ambiently? Also, I’m thinking about buying the long thermowell probe for the fermostat, would you be able to do this method entirely from the internal temp of the wort? Cheers from Australia
Hey Brook! The reason I move the probe is it means the compressor in my freezer isn’t on for hours on end, plus it results in a more gradual temp change. Either way, I’ve done it both ways, it works fine. I know people who use thermowells with this method and it works great. Cheers!
Hi Brook, sorry to crash in here off-topic but I have just found this site and am likewise in Oz, wondering what kind of thermostat you use and where you picked it up? I recently bought a STC-1000 on eBay and am looking for tips on setting it up, in case you have the same thing.. Cheers, Jack
Hi Jack, I have an Ohmbrew Fermostat as my fermentation fridge controller; so I’ve bought the matching thermostats made by the same company. I run the thermowell into my better bottles through the centre hole of an orange carboy cap, and a tube off the other hole as a blow off. Good luck with the setup.
I know this thread’s a bit old but thought I’d throw this out there for those who may not yet have ferm control.
Another alternative that works well is the STC-1000+ Dual Sensor from Black Box. http://www.blackboxbrew.com/store/stc-1000-dual-sensors
The function of the second probe is to measure the ambient temp inside the chamber. You set two hysterisis points (hy1 and hy2 are what controls your +/- thresholds around set temperatures), hy1 is for the probe attached to the side of the fermenter (probe 1) and hy2 relates to the ambient probe (probe 2). After consulting with Will he suggested I start out with a hy2 value of 8 and work down from there. I’ve come to rest at about 5 in my setup. To illustrate, let’s say i have the following values set in my unit:
SP (probe 1) – 50
hy1 – .5
hy2 – 5
The unit will keep probe 1’s temp at 50F (+/- .5F per hy1) which it will do by toggling the power source on/off to the compressor. In order to do this, I will allow the *ambient* temperature in the chamber to get as cold as SP less hy2, so 45F. This will prevent undershots as well as incessant running of the compressor. You have to play with it to dial it in but once you get it set right it is set it and forget it. Also, if you are using profiles, the same logic applies – whatever SP the profile dictates at that point in the profile, hy2 will “float along” with it.
I also have to say Will is extremely helpful, and I will continue to patronize him for any ferm control needs.
Great info, thank you. Going to try this with a Vienna Lager this weekend. Are you boiling for 60 or 90 mins when running your ferment this way? Shaving that 30 min extra boil would make my Saturday morning brew more family friendly.
60!
Last night, we poured our first glass of a German Pilsner me and my brother made 17 days ago. It was fermented with this method and the beer is clear and clean tasting. Everyone who has tried this beer, loves it. I don’t think I will try the longer method anytime soon. Cheers!
Going to try this method this weekend with a Marzen. Wish me luck!
Hi, thanks for this.
Just to confirm, when priming for bottles, you use 20c as the temperature as it’s “the warmest it’s been after primary fermentation” – correct?
Basically, yeah, 20˚C ought to work just fine.
Hi!
I tried this method and the beer tasted great on the last day of the diacetyl rest was performed at ~ 17°C for roughly 5 days so I decided to start the ramp down. I kegged it yesterday after being cold-crashed and fined with gelatin for 48h but discovered that almost all the flavour was gone and it had a strong alcoholic “taste” to it. What could be the source of that, it tasted great just before the ramp-down?
So after crashing and fining, the beer developed a strong alcohol flavor? I’m assuming this is pre-packaging? I wouldn’t judge it until it’s actually carbonated and ready to drink, as I personally experienced uncarbonated cold beer quite differently than the finished product.
may have missed it in the all the posts- but are you referencing apparent (ADT) or real (RDT) Attenuation? Important to clarify for readers; eg.g a 1.052OG fermented to 1.019 = 62% ADT or 51% RDT.
Apparent, I’ll try to be more vigilant about pointing that out.
Might even be good to show an example of the calc for reference- depending how long you’ve been brewing, some may not know the calculation. Me- I use beer smith since math hurts my head sometimes ????
I am excited to try this on a Marzen I have going now. I pitched rehydrated W-34/70 in a 1.054 Marzen on 9/8/15. It is now finally down to 1.025 on 9/17/15. The krausen has fallen from around 1″ to maybe 0.5″. I fermented at 48F to start. I am going to set my chamber to be at 53F. What hysteresis do you use on your temp controller? I am assuming I want the chamber to be as close to 53F as possible, so that means setting it at 50F with a 4 degree hysteresis for me so that the avg ambient temp is 53F.
Hy=1F, I set the controller to my target ferm temp.
With the probe dangling in the fermenter, you still have Hy=1F? That’s rougher on the compressor than if it is taped to the side, right?
I attach the probe to the side of the fermentor with a little insulative backing, which is pretty similar to a thermowell. I’m not sure how hard it is on the compressor, but I’ve never broken a freezer and I brew a lot 🙂
Your fast lager method says to let the probe hang loose during the ramp up.
You said, “…probe dangling in the fermenter…” During the ramp up, I do let the probe read the ambient temp in the chamber. Hope that helps.
OK, i’ll try that. i have to be careful not to pinch it when I shut the lid though.
Finally got freezer with temp control, excited have an Oktoberfest on this schedule right now. New to this so maybe stupid question, is there any risk of freezing beer if I go that low in step 3, say if my controller is off a degree or two. And when you cold crash I assume you mean probe is still measuring ambient. Thanks!
It takes pretty cold temps to freeze beer, I’ve gone down as low as 28˚F without issue.
I am also trying this schedule right now on a Marzen/Oktoberfest. So far, I have my fridge set to an avg temp of 68F during the warm rest. It keeps bubbling away. I’m not sure if it’s still fermenting or just off-gassing. I’ll take another sample in a few days. I hope this works!
My guess is off gassing… but every fermentation is unique!
It’s been 16 days since brewing my Marzen, and I’m chilling down to freezing now. I’m just going to set the ambient probe to 32 and let the beer chill as fast as it does at ambient. The Marzen has no off flavors that I can detect, very clean and nice, like I would expect. I’m excited to get this baby carbonated. I wonder if W-34/70 is really a lager yeast. It really doesn’t taste weird at any point during fermentation. I never really detected much of any acetaldehyde, sulfur compounds or diacetyl like when using liquid yeast. Is it because I use a commercial pitch of it or b/c it is just a weird yeast? I’m pretty sure if I used the whilte labs version of this yeast it would kick off more sulfur at least. I’ve used that before in the past and gotten sulfur.
I would think the commercial pitch (greater rate) played some role, as I tend to get a little sulfur during fermentation with 34/70, but it dissipates quickly.
The Marzen turned out really good. It’s hard to compare without a side-by-side, but it tastes good and lagery to me!
I just repitched the yeast using a sloppy old slurry into a Munich Helles. It fermented down pretty fast. It also had a ton of sulfur aroma! I’ve never gotten sulfur from W-34/70, but this is the first time repitching it. I wonder if that means the yeast was more stressed/less healthy than when I use fresh packs? I ramped up to 68F, and the sulfur blew off within a day or so. I have it carbonating now, but the samples I’ve had taste really good.
I’ve gotten sulfur a few times when using (and reusing) 34/70 (as well as it’s liquid counterpart WLP830), it’s never been an issue in the finished beer. I know some will disagree, but lately I’ve been thinking sulfur during fermentation is due to more than just the yeast strain and is likely a function of water chemistry and grist make up as well.
Sulphur, my last enemy!
I use w34/70 for 1 year or so. Done a lot of lagers with it. Used 33g per 20L. Ferment at 8-10C. Diacetyl and Sulphur were my main problems. With Narziss schedule with a prolonged diacetyl rest (Brulosopher’s) I got rid if diacetyl. But Sulphur was the trade off. I decided to do a starter / yeast activation (both with dry yeast and repitch): Got it!
After 2 years of homebrew and 500L of beer (mainly bad beer) I’m proud to serve decent lagers to my folks!
I used to dread the sulfur, but if it dissipates so well by ramping up to 68F, then it’s not a big deal. That is one of the reasons I used to hate making lagers. I always used to get sulfur when using liquid yeasts, but I didn’t do the ramp up back then. Thanks!
Huh, interesting Luis. I also use about 3 packs for a 5.5ish gallon batch. I have never had any sulfur when using freshly rehydrated dry yeast. I think it may depend on some factors that we don’t understand, as Marshall said. I guess sulfur is always a risk with lager yeast.
I’ve never used more than a single pack, rehydrated, and I’ve never had issues with fermentation. A little sulfur here and there, but nothing that caused problems in the finished beer.
Hey Marshall. Why does that not surprise me?! I have been trying to use the commercial pitching rate. I’ve gotten good results, so I haven’t messed with lowering it. It was pretty expensive to brew lagers, but now that I seem to be able to repitch, that makes it a little cheaper. I may try dropping down the pitching rate, especially with this ramp up method. I also have in the back of my mind the memory of a Bo Pils I tried doing when I first started brewing. I pitched one package of white labs lager yeast into a 5 gallon batch, and it just never fermented out to dryness. it had a really nice flavor but was sweet. I think that memory has influenced me unconsciously!
I will try your lagering method for a Baltic Porter, now in fermentation since Saturday!
I plan to bottle this batch (I am short of kegs) , it is my second attempt for a lager, the first one is still lagering for weeks in a keg (started before I saw this method…).
Are you always using a fining agent before bottling? I transferred my first lager in a keg with a shortened dip tube after D-rest because I tought it would be better to remove the beer from the sediments before transfering to the serving keg.
Do you reuse the yeast for other batches after this process?
Thank you for the answer, and thanks for your experiments!
Yes, I fine every single batch with gelatin. And yes, I often save and repitch unrinsed slurry.
I want to try your lagering method, however i cannot get my refrigerator to reach the ramp down temperature. As an alternative, i am considering bottling the beers after reaching FG and then putting the bottles in a temp controlled Freezer (not big enough for fermentation vessel) at 0 degrees for 5 days. Then after 5 days letting the bottles reach 22 degrees before priming with sugar for carbonation at 3 weeks. Do you think this would work? or could you suggest an alternative.
I know of folks who have done just this with much success! Works even faster of you fine with gelatin.
Hi there,
I tried this method with a Czech Pilsner OG 1.048 and I had it for a week in the primary at 12 C then when the OG was 1.020 it smelled good tasted great so I moved it to my house which was probably about 18 C and the gravity subsequently dropped to 1.012 but this was accompanied by the development of a really pungent estery smell (possibly acetaldehyde?) I moved it back to my shed for a week where it was probably resting around the 14 C mark and there has been no noticable drop in this flavour. My question is is this acetaldehyde and will it clean with time or is it one of those hot yeast makes ester flavours and won’t go with time? I used white labs pilsner yeast and have now fined it and kegged it. Thanks for your time!
Jonny
It could be acetaldehyde- does it taste like green apples or fresh cut grass? I’ve never had this issue. Another shitty possibility is that you’ve picked up a contamination. Hoping that’s not the case!
I think I meant Diacetyl but it didn’t disappear after resting it for a week. I could describe the flavour as butterscotchy but it doesn’t immediately jump to mind. Not sure i might try krausening it with some currently active WLP001
If it’s diacetyl, it ought to scrub out with the warmer temps, unless it’s a contamination.
Love your site and love the available information. I’ve made several lagers using the quicker method and have been very happy with the results, so for this I want to thank you. For my next lager I plan to make a Sam Adam’s Boston Lager clone however I’ve heard they krausen theirs and that’s how they get the mouth feel and head. I plan to hold back 1/6th of my wort and storing it in the fridge. Same for the yeast starter (1/6 in the fridge). I’m thinking about adding this mixture (wort+yeast) into my fermentor just as it reaches the 65*-68*F temp. Would you agree that this would be the time to krausen using your lager method?
I have never krausened a beer and am highly skeptical it contributes much of value, but it would be fun to try! Because of my ignorance on the topic, take my response with a grain of salt, but I’d say your plan seems kosher.
So I have a Münchener Dunkel that I just pitched yesterday. I have always been of the “start fermentation at 68-ish just to get it going fast, then drop to ideal ferm temps” school. That is what I did in this case. Then I found your article today and I am considering it (I am fermenting at 52 now, since I had strong fermentation going in less than 12 hours with a starter and oxygenation).
So will my start-high-then-drop method peclude your fermentation profile? Any drawbacks? I’d love it if I didn’t have to wait until February to drink this glorious double-decocted beauty.
Also, I notice you don’t mention racking to a secondary. I am used to racking after 7-10 days. Do you do all your fermentation, crash, and “lagering” in the primary?
I’m not sure it precludes the method, but I’ve never done it… yet. I never rack to secondary for anything these days, so yeah, everything happens in primary, even fining with gelatin.
Okay. Thanks for the quick reply!
I am anxious to try this method because it could really change things.
I will have an opportunity this summer to do a side-by-side comparison of a traditional Oktoberfest/Marzen fermentation and lager profile (5 months kettle-to-keg) and this method. I will brew the first one in April for serving in September, and another batch in August with this method and do a side-by-side.
You mentioned in one of the earlier comments this year that you had plans to do a side-by-side. Did that ever pan out? Or could you not bring yourself to follow the laborious traditional procedure anymore?
I guess no secondary makes sense, since the conventional wisdom is to rack by two weeks, and your method has the beer in the keg by that point.
So back to my Dunkel question – I know you said you don’t think my pitching method precludes your fermentation profile, but is there anything about your pitching cold method (as opposed to my pitching warm method) that you think is better for this fermentation profile? I mean at this point, two days in, I am basically at the same place where your brews are two days in. I am using WLP 838, and I’ve got a very vigorous ferment going at 52 degrees.
pilsner, OG:48, pitched WLP 830 liquid.
4 days @ 50 degrees, SG: 24, ramped up to 60 and will keep it there for 4-5 days, before cold crashing.
I bottle condition adding corn sugar and my main concern is the yeast ability to give a well carbonated beer after the cold crashing procedure. Also read that using gelatin, which I never used before in my previous ales, can reduce the yeast cell number additionally.
Or do I not need to worry and just do as described?
I know plenty of people who cold crash and fine with gelatin before bottle conditioning, their beers not only taste great, but look great too!
Thanks for the fast response!
I will cold crash with gelatin, bottle carbonate and report back to you in 3 weeks.
Thanks for a brilliant site!
bottle condition issue:
– do you really need 2 weeks at 20Celcius to carbonate a Lager?
– my last 2 Helles batches (20L) were both half carbonated in bottles and cornykegs (as control), both with priming sugar (150g table sugar for 20L); measured the keg’s pressure with a spundung valve at day 5 of carbonation, at 20 Celcius – 30PSI; placed the keg and the bottles inside the keezer at 0Celsius and the keg’s pressure dropped to 14PSI at day 10; tasted it, it was well carbonated; also, opened a bottle at the same day, it was well carbonated too.
Do you have the same experience?
cheers
luis
(cont.)
interestingly, I measured the gravity before (FG) and after adding the priming sugar and again at day 5 of carbonation:
– FG 3 Plato
– After priming sugar: 3,5 Plato
– At day 5: 3 Plato
Are you ever worried about cold crashing pulling outside air into your carboy? Could this outside air cause oxygenation or infection? Would the beer drop as clear if you kegged the beer at the end of step 2 (Ramp Up), and then cold crashed in the keg under a blanket of CO2, adding the gelatin in the keg?
Worried? Nah. But it does happen every time I cold crash, usually sucking in a few drops of Star San from my airlock with it. I suppose it’s possible this could be a problem, but the only contamination issues I’ve had over the last 400+ batches I’ve brewed have all had a pretty identifiable cause that wasn’t related to suck back.
I believe Jamil Z. advocates for (or used to) kegging warm and crashing once packaged. I’ve done it and prefer racking crystal clear beer to my kegs. Either way, it works.
Awesome. Thanks for the response!
I usually put a rubber stopper into the carboy neck before cold crashing. Then, when you pull out the stopper, it sucks in air, but you can purge the headspace with CO2. I suppose the ultimate would be to put in a stopper with a valve on it and then push in CO2 through the valve in the stopper to get it out. i don’t like the starsan going into the beer, but i seriously doubt it would cause any issue.