Author: Jake Huolihan
Märzen has long been a favorite style of mine– sipping a malty sweet yet crisp and refreshing pint on an Autumn afternoon is about as close to beer nirvana as it gets for me. My wife and I have made an annual tradition out of attending as many local Oktoberfests as possible, one of our favorites being Dry Dock Brewing’s event that also includes the single-style Docktoberfest Homebrew Competition. I’d avoided entering in the past for various reasons, likely my fear of not doing too well, and decided this would be the year I’d shelve my anxieties and enter what I believed to be a good example of the style.
I’ve brewed a fair amount of Märzen over the last few years, mostly scattershot attempts with little forethought or discipline in execution, but given my goal of making a version worthy of an award, I approached design a recipe with a bit more scrutiny. With the grain bill and hop schedule set, I was left to decide which yeast to use, an ingredient that seems to me an often overlooked component of lager recipe formulation. After some deliberation, I boiled my choices down to two strains, based largely on my appreciation of the commercial breweries the strains are purported to have originated from– Ayinger and Weihenstephaner. Rather than pick just one and hope it works, I thought it’d be more fun to compare them and put them to them to the test!
| PURPOSE |
To evaluate the differences between WLP833 German Bock Lager yeast and Saflager W-34/70 when used to ferment a split batch of the same Märzen wort.
| METHODS |
For this batch of Märzen, I compiled the recipe data I could find online from a bunch of commercial and award winning homebrew examples, did some fancy spreadsheet finagling, and created a recipe using the most common ingredients between them.
Märzen Recipe
Recipe Details
| Batch Size | Boil Time | IBU | SRM | Est. OG | Est. FG | ABV |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 11 gal | 60 min | 23.2 IBUs | 12.3 SRM | 1.058 | 1.013 | 6.0 % |
| Actuals | 1.054 | 1.012 | 5.5 % | |||
Fermentables
| Name | Amount | % |
|---|---|---|
| Vienna Malt (Weyermann) | 11 lbs | 46.32 |
| Munich I (Weyermann) | 7 lbs | 29.47 |
| Pilsner (2 Row) Ger | 5 lbs | 21.05 |
| Caramunich II (Weyermann) | 8 oz | 2.11 |
| Blackprinz | 4 oz | 1.05 |
Hops
| Name | Amount | Time | Use | Form | Alpha % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Hallertauer | 50 g | 60 min | Boil | Pellet | 2.4 |
| Nugget | 15 g | 60 min | Boil | Pellet | 12.4 |
| Hallertauer | 28 g | 30 min | Boil | Pellet | 2.4 |
| Hallertauer | 52 g | 10 min | Boil | Pellet | 2.4 |
Yeast
| Name | Lab | Attenuation | Temperature |
|---|---|---|---|
| Saflager Lager (W-34/70) | DCL/Fermentis | 75% | 48°F - 59°F |
| German Bock Lager (WLP833) | White Labs | 73% | 48°F - 55°F |
Download
| Download this recipe's BeerXML file |
Using my preferred yeast pitch rate calculator, I determined the size of the starter I would need for the WLP833 and threw it together a couple nights before brewing.
I collected my ingredients and water the night prior to brew day then woke up the next morning, heated my strike water, and mashed in to come close enough to my target mash temperature for this batch.
After a 60 minute rest, I collected 13 gallons of wort and proceeded to boil it for 90 minutes, adding hops per the recipe.
Once the boil was finished, I chilled the wort to a respectable 62°F/17°C then split it equally between two 6.5 gallon fermentors. A hydrometer measurement showed the wort to be at 1.054 OG, exactly what BeerSmith predicted.
I placed the fermentors in my cool fermentation chamber to let them continue chilling to my desired fermentation temperature of 49°F/9°C; once reached, each batch was hit with 60 seconds of pure O2 before the yeast was pitched, one receiving two rehydrated packs of W-34/70 while the decanted starter of WLP833 was poured into the other. At 36 hours post-pitch, I noticed the WLP833 beer had already developed a kräusen, confirming the experiences of others who have noted longer lag times when using dry yeast.
The W-34/70 beer began showing signs of activity just 12 hours later.
Four days after pitching the yeast, I observed the W-34/70 batch to be noticeably darker in color than the WLP833 beer.
This difference became less stark over time and they looked about the same a few days later. At one week post-pitch, with both beers showing signs of slowed fermentation activity, I began gently ramping the temperature up to 58°F/14°C over the course of a few days to ensure complete attenuation and clean-up of any undesirable fermentation byproducts. After another week, multiple hyrdometer measurements indicated both beers had stabilized at the same finishing gravity.
I then cold crashed and fined the beers with gelatin before kegging them a couple days later. After 12 hours at 50 PSI, I purged the kegs, reduced to my preferred serving pressure, and impatiently pulled samples of each that showed they were already well carbonated and clear. After another week of “lagering,” they were ready for evaluation.
| RESULTS |
A panel of 27 people participated in this xBmt. Each taster, blind to the variable being investigated, was served 2 samples of the beer fermented with Saflager W-34/70 and 1 sample of the beer fermented with WLP833 in different colored opaque cups then instructed to select the odd-beer-out. At this sample size, 14 tasters (p<0.05) would have had to select the sample fermented with WLP833 in order to achieve statistical significance. In the end, 12 tasters (p=0.15) accurately chose the different beer, suggesting participants were not reliably able to distinguish a Märzen fermented with WLP833 German Bock Lager yeast from one fermented with Saflager W-34/70 yeast. Preference ratings of those who were correct on the triangle test were about split with 6 reporting they liked the beer fermented with W-34/70, 4 thinking the WLP833 fermented beer was better, and 2 saying they noticed a difference but had no preference.
My Impressions: A day after kegging and burst carbonating, I performed my first semi-blind triangle test and was able to pick out the WLP833 beer on aroma alone, noting a light, but distinct sulfur note that I’ve always experienced with this strain. Comparing the beers side-by-side, I perceived the one fermented with W-34/70 to have a slightly higher level of malty sweetness, similar to the Vienna Lager fermented with W-34/70 I happened to have on tap at the same time. However, in follow-up triangle tests, I was unable to reliably distinguish the beers, which proved to me how similar they really were. Bias most certainly played a role, though it’s also possible any differences I noticed at first effectively dissipated over the time the beers spent cold conditioning between my initial and later tastings.
As for the beer, I enjoyed it, but felt it wasn’t quite there for me. In my opinion, it tasted more like a Vienna Lager than the toasty Märzen I’d hoped for. For the next batch, I might go with a malt bill consisting of a 60% blend of Munich I and Munich II to get more depth of flavor, balancing it out with 20% Vienna and 20% Pilsner malts.
| DISCUSSION |
I’d used WLP833 German Bock Lager yeast a few times prior to this xBmt and always perceived a distinct yet subtle sulfur note in the finished beers. Initially, I was pretty shocked tasters weren’t able to reliably tell these beers apart, as my first impression was that they were fairly different. However, the longer I had the beers on tap, the more they seemed to converge, eventually to the point it was difficult for me to tell them apart.
The ease of using dry yeasts is something I really love, particularly when it comes to making lager, which traditionally requires large starters that need to be decanted when using liquid strains. Going forward, I plan to use Saflager W-34/70 more often not only because it works well and makes a tasty beer, but because it’s less of a pain, just rehydrate a pack or two for 15 minutes then pitch. I’m certainly not writing off liquid lager yeasts, but the results of this xBmt and my experience with these beers have influenced my perspective on dry yeast. Ultimately, my search for the perfect house lager strain continues, as I’m still after something I experience as a bit more crisp and defined, a search that will include both liquid and dry options.
If you’ve used WLP833 German Bock Lager yeast and/or Saflager W-34/70, or if you have thoughts on this xBmt, please share in the comments section below!
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53 thoughts on “exBEERiment | Yeast Comparison: Saflager W-34/70 vs. WLP833 German Bock Lager In A Märzen”
What was the flocculation difference? I can’t seem to get 34/70 to floc and always stays fluffy.
I personally did not notice a floccilation difference between the strains. I used gelatin and both beers were quite clear within days of kegging, sorry no help on this one.
i’ve done pseudo lager split batch, one with w-34/70 other with s-04. the difference in flocculation was enormous. s-04 dropped like a rock while w-34/70 never settled to the bottom after 3 weeks in primary. i don’t cold crash and i bottle exclusively so this was a major bummer. fermentis website says both yeast are highly flocculant which is strange..
Fine with gelatine. Drops right out.
No experience with the 833, but I’ve used W34/70 quite a bit. I’m with you on ease of dry lager yeast, and honestly, I see no reason to use anything but 34/70 (for me at least). Seems to be a fairly forgiving yeast, temperature-wise, and makes a really clean beer even without traditional “lagering”. My most recent 34/70 beer is a California Common that is on tap right now…maybe not quite the esters you’d expect from a Cal Lager yeast, but a damn good beer nonetheless.
I’m totally with you on 34/70, super robust, easy to use, surprisingly clean and malty IMO. Maybe it’s just the hot weather currently but it just didn’t quite get that thirst quenching character I want in a lager, hence my continuing to search for a house strain.
I’ve brewed plenty of lagers: Maibock, Oktoberfest, Marzen, Dopplebock, and the latest was a Vienna Lager. The Maibock and the Dopplebock are my favorites, and I’ve brewed them multiple times. I started with WY830, and recently tried WY833. Never tried dry yeast for lagers, though I’ve used plenty for ales.
Supposedly 34/70 is the same as the wlp830 you referred to. This xBmt compared basically 830 to the 833 you referenced.
I wonder if the W-34/70 lag could be reduced/eliminated if you performed a small vitality starter with some of your brew day wort. You’d have a lot of time to do it because it takes a while to chill down the beer to pitch temp.
It could go something like this:
-start the boil
-rehydrate yeast packets
-10 minutes into boil, pull off like 500ml or so of wort
-place wort/flask in an ice bath for 15 minutes to get it down to a reasonable pitch temp
-pitch the yeast into flask, then place on stir-plate until the main batch is fully chilled.
You wouldn’t really be creating many cells, more just giving the yeast their “pre-workout,” before the main event, just a thought. Might be too much work for the payoff…
As you can probably tell, I have a little lag anxiety!
It likely could be reduced, the lag doesn’t bother me too much though.
I’ve never had a problem with the lag time in the dry yeast. It slows down turnaround time by a day at most. If you can’t make wort that will last 24 hours without going bad before the yeast really get going, you should work on that!
W-34/70 is a fantastic yeast. I can’t believe how clean and malty it makes the beer. I just did an experiment after the exBeeriment on fermentation temp. I decided to ferment my usual Helles recipe at 65F!!! It was down to within about a point of finishing gravity within 4 days!! It does have acetaldehyde and a very grainy aroma at day 4, but i’m not worried. i’m sure it will clean up nicely over the next week or so. I love not having to worry about having enough yeast to do the beer with the dry yeast. I’ve repitched with great success as well.
Thanks for sharing! The Vienna I referred to in the article with 34/70 was fermented at 64F, it was dare I say, cleaner or at least as clean as the märzen at 50F
I think one of the advantages of fermenting it warmer is that it cleans up so thoroughly and so quickly and blows off more of that nasty sulfur character (that makes me not like lagers!)
My favorite lager strain is whatever I can get off a tank from a local brewery. Ask nicely and they are usually willing to hook you up. WAY easier when you need a huge pitch and that stuff really gets going.
34/70 is an amazing yeast that I use for all my lagers. In fact, I have been using it for all my “ales” too. It is easy to use, and can ferment warm.
It’s a special yeast IMO
I’ve used 34/70 twice now, both times at 17-18C (62-64F I think) (thanks Fermentation Temperature Exbeeriments!). I don’t get a massive lag with it, maybe 24h at most before it’s frothing away. Don’t know if that is temperature-dependent, wort-dependent, or luck.
My first time with US-05 had a lag of only 6h or so; I did sort of a vitality starter thing with it, stealing wort from the first 5 minutes of the boil, cooling, and adding it to the rehydrated yeast. That one is an n of 1, so take it with a grain of salt.
I would personally guess that the lag for 34/70 in my case was entirely temperature dependent.
I’m a little late to this post, but we have completely switched to Fermentis from White Labs and haven’t looked back. Their dry yeasts are amazing. All of our new beers have hit their expected FG in no time and each beer was delicious with no off flavors whatsoever. We just brewed an NEIPA with the Safale S-33 and it rocked out! I hit my FG in 3 days. As for the 34/70, I used that for my pilsner and fermented at 59 degrees with absolutely no lag. This is the upper limit they suggest and it worked great. Fermentis all the way!
I love your exbeeriments by the way!
Thank you for this xbmt, I’ve been avoiding brewing any lagers for not wanting to mess with yeast starters but I wan’t sure if the dry lager yeast was effective at producing good beers. I think my next brew will have to be a lager using 34/70.
I felt the same way for a long time. I only made a couple per year due to fussing with getting enough yeast built up. W-34/70 will unleash your lager-making self. You just rehydrate 2-3 packs and you can brew anytime you want, just take the yeast out of the fridge. I’d recommend saving the yeast and repitching if you are comfortable. That way you can save some money on yeast and have lots of yeast around to use. If you let it go too long, you can always tear open a couple more fresh packs and make another lager!
Cheers! Glad you enjoyed it
What was your reason for the two bittering additions at 60 minutes? Were you looking for two different bittering characteristics or do you feel it would add a different flavor? Only asking because we always hear that 60 minute additions lose all flavor and only bitter. Thank you
I was looking for cheap IBUs, I would have gone 100% nugget if I hadn’t had the extra hallertau around.
I have a lot of experience with Dark German lagers and have done many side by side yeast experiments like this with Munich Dunkels and Marzens. I also brew a fair amount of Traditional German Bocks.
The yeasts that I have used the most are Wyeast Bavarian Lager 2206 (WLP820), Wyeast Munich Lager 2308 (WLP838) and Wyeast Bohemian Lager 2124 (WLP830). For Dunkels I have settled on Bohemian Lager 2124, for Bocks and Marzens I now always use the Bavarian Lager 2206 which is the WLP 820 Oktoberfest Blend. You can also use WLP011 Euro Ale Yeast as a Marzen “Ale” fermented in the low 60s.
To my tastes the WLP838 is very clean tasting and you have to do a Diacetyl Rest. The WLP820 is a very tasty strain with more flavor and aroma profile than the WLP838. The WLP830 is the most aggressive aroma/flavor profile and goes very well with most any dark lager but some may prefer a less aggressive aroma/taste.
It is very eye opening to do side by side comparisons with two or three different yeasts as you can find out which one you prefer. It is also interesting to see what wins awards and what does not as this may be different than your personal preferences. An additional way to compare is to blend the two beers post kegging to see if you like a blend rather than one or the other. Keep up the great work. Bob Manke Milwaukee WI
Thanks for this interesting info, Bob. I’ve hardly used lager yeast much less compared them! Have you compared W-34/70 with any liquid yeasts? What do you mean WLP 830 is the most “aggressive.” It makes the most malty beer?
Thanks Aaron, I’m not good at describing tastes and aromas very well so aggressive is probably the wrong term but I find Wyeast Bohemian Lager yeast to have the most impact on aroma and taste of the three I use. When I say most neutral I think of the comparison between Wyeast American Ale yeasts 1056 and 1272, the 1056 is the most neutral and allows the hop aromas to shine through better for IPA and Pale Ales than 1272 which imparts a much different and impact full flavor and aroma profile that I dont really care for. Others may not have that same experience. Depending on the beer style that may or may not be what you are looking for. For a Dark Czech lager yes but a Marzen maybe not. Until you try these experiments for yourself it will be hard to tell which one you will really like best. I have not tried the Hella Bock yeast or the W34/70 so I have some work to do to try them out. I do have the new WLP 835 German Lager X yeast from the White labs vault that is next on my list to try but have not decided what beer to brew with it. Brewing 10 gal batches is also not easy for some especially if you have a 10 gal cooler mash tun like I do but I usually do a partial mash using LME at a higher target gravity and then add 2 gal of water to each fermenter to get the 5 gal volume in each. My fermentation chamber is an old upright freezer that can hold up to 4 carboys so I usually do all my lagers at one time to share the same fermentation schedule at 50F. Best Regards, Bob Manke Milwaukee, WI
Have you tried more O2? I used 833 for a Pilsner and schwarzbier. More O2 regulator is just a welding regulator so I just set to the slowest trickle of bubbles and ran it for 3 minutes. I got the best rest for that quenching lager that is hard to nail down. BYO’s Mr. Wizard had a good response suggesting going as high 9 minutes.
Based on the results of previous xBmts I’m skeptical this would make a ton of difference. Definitely wouldn’t be opposed to exploring it though.
First, I just want the author to know how much I appreciate this article! I use Fermentis almost exclusively (Safale – Saflager – Safbrew). I don’t use the W34/70 much any more, as I do enjoy my lagers much more with the S-23.
It may be a ‘sin’ of some kind, but I pitch at ~70* and put the fermenter into 58* for 2 weeks – signs of fermentation evident ~12 hours. (single packet, re-hydrated).
Articles such as this (especially 27 member blind tasting!) confirms the value I’ve found in Fermentis Labs products!!!
Thanks!
I second the vote for S-23. My understanding is that W-34/70 is a bock yeast, and if you are looking for a crisp clean fermenting lager yeast S-23 is the way to go. This has also been my experience when using them side by side. I even fermented my bock with them side by side and actually preferred the S-23 flavor profile.
As a side note, personally when I am looking for a crisper flavor profile I mash low and for at least 90 minutes to lower the FG a bit.
If I want something crisp, I usually boost the gypsum some. It really makes it come across dry and crisp, though yeast can have a big impact on that too, as you say
The water profile I used was Amber balanced in bru’n water. Off the top of my head I believe the ppm of sulfate is 75 versus 60 of chloride.
Interesting thanks for the tips, I could be wrong but I was under the impression 34/70 was the Weihenstephan strain (WLP830/WY2206).
Cheers glad you enjoyed! S-23 and S-189 are on my list to try for sure!
Dang, I’ve never heard of S-189! I just looked at some reviews, and it seems to say that it is maltier than w-34/70. sounds good! i’ll have to try it out. sounds like it is in the order of s-23, w-34/70, s-189 in terms of crisp to malty ordering.
Do you live in Denver by chance?
I certainly do!
Awesome! I’m down in the springs. Love the articles. Not a ton of local clubs done here, might try to connect with one up there and get in on these taste tests!
Great xBmt as always. I find that 34/70 doesn’t produce much sulfur, so it was interesting to hear you mention that this is how you picked out the 833 beer in comparison. It matches my experience when comparing 34/70 to other lager yeast.
If you’re looking for a toasty Maerzen, definitely bump up the Munich. If you need a color correction from Blackprinz, then you’re definitely not using enough Munich, and could also sub in a darker CaraMunich or (better yet) Aromatic instead of the CaraMunich II.
Thanks for the tips, yeah I got zero sulfur from 34/70. I actually never really use caramel malts in my lagers; I only did this time because of my commitment to the recipe analysis. I use black prinz in 100% of my lagers, usually less than 1%, often I don’t even report it in the malt bill. I just like a touch of extra color. Cheers!
Do you think it was necessary to oxygenate the wort with the 34/70? I realize that in this case you have to do the same to both worts, since aeration is not a variable in the experiment. The packages of Fermentis’ ale yeast say that due to the healthiness and high cell count, no aeration is needed. Do they give the same advice for lager yeast? Two of the three XBMTs about aeration seemed to find no difference. Your blog has really helped me to simplify my brewing process and concentrate on what´s important.
I’ve never found a difference b/w oxygenating and not oxygenating with dry yeasts. However, a lot of people say the yeast will be better off if you choose to repitch them again if you oxygenate them the first time around. That may or may not be true, so I just do it as extra insurance.
Glad you enjoy the blog! I personally don’t think oxygenating for first pitch dry yeast matters at all, though I’ve no data to back this up. I’ve done big beers with dry yeast and no O2 that fully attenuated and tasted great. That by no means proves O2 does nothing for dry yeast, just that I’ve never noticed a negative impact. Cheers
The company says no need to oxygenate and I agree. We have stopped oxygenating since moving away from White Labs.
There’s a potential exbeeriment: W-34/70 with and without oxygen.
I recently kegged a Helles that was split between German Bock (833) and Andechs (835). The 833 was clean, malty and the Hallertau Mittelfruh came across as somewhat spicy on the palate. Really nice.
I was really, really excited to try the Andechs strain as I’d visited the Kloster 20 years ago and fell in love with their beers. The Andechs yeast is lighter, shows a bit more fruity note on the nose and finishes balanced. Definitely a more delicate beer than the 833.
My neighbor steals over my house every couple of days to grab the 833. I definitely prefer it as well between the two. I will enter these beers in a regional competition this fall and am debating whether to enter the 833 as a Czech Pilsner. And the 835 as a Helles.
This coming weekend, I’m brewing an Oktoberfest (Sharktoberfest) and was planning to split between 833 and 820. My fermentation chamber holds two 5g buckets. I’d really like to brew a bit bigger and split the yeast between the 833, 820 and 825, but am lacking space.
For fun, I would highly recommend serving those 2 beers in a proper triangle to a few blind tasters, maybe even if they know the variable, as I’m not convinced that matters all too much. It’d also be interesting to see how well you perform on various triangle tests, as in my, as well the other contributors’, experience, it seems once the bias of knowing which beer is which is gone, the beers become exceedingly difficult to distinguish.
I can confirm the 833 is the Ayinger strain. I gave it to White Labs about 15-17 years ago after it had been passed around the HB community for years.
This is very cool information. Any tips on where you procured the ayinger yeast?
It was a long time ago so I’m not sure where the final strain came to me from. It was a home brewer in Michigan who stored the cultures in a -80 F fridge. I also gave White Labs the 833 Zurich lager strain that I cultured directly from a bottle of Samichlaus.
i absolutely love the wlp 833. nice thick and smooth round strain, i only do bocks with this one. its a must go to for xmas beers
thanks for your gift to the brewers around the world <3
i think here is a huge difference between the 34/70 and the 833 .