Author: Malcolm Frazer
Marketed as a premium 2-row malt, Maris Otter has solidified its place in the hearts of professionals and homebrewers alike who claim it imparts a unique rich biscuit-like character not often found in standard American 2-row varieties. 
As John Mallett points out in his recent book, Malt: A Practical Guide from Field to Brewhouse, Maris Otter is an English heritage variety viewed by many as being superior to other malts due not only to its flavor characteristics but the fact it “releases its extract into wort more easily during lautering.” To be clear, Maris Otter is the name of the barley variety that different companies then take and malt, whereas domestic/American 2-row is the generic term used for malt produced from various barley varieties including AC Metcalfe, CDC Meredith, Expedition, and a whole host of others.
As a homebrewer who has touted the superior quality of Maris Otter for years, I began to wonder if my adoration for this more expensive malt was based on positive attributes I was actually able to taste, a prideful nod to my British heritage, or an appeal to authority.
| PURPOSE |
To evaluate the differences between Maris Otter and domestic 2-row malts when used to make an otherwise similar beer.
| METHODS |
Given the widespread belief any true-to-style English ale requires the use of a traditional English malt, I figured I’d brew up one of my favorite styles from across the pond for this xBmt, keeping it on the less bitter end of the IBU scale in order to let the malt take center stage.
Dual Citizen Extra Bitter
Recipe Details
| Batch Size | Boil Time | IBU | SRM | Est. OG | Est. FG | ABV |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 5.5 gal | 60 min | 35.3 IBUs | 9.0 SRM | 1.058 | 1.020 | 5.0 % |
| Actuals | 1.058 | 1.015 | 5.7 % | |||
Fermentables
| Name | Amount | % |
|---|---|---|
| Maris Otter OR Domestic 2-Row | 11.375 lbs | 91.46 |
| Gold Swaen© - Red Malt | 7 oz | 3.52 |
| Carastan Hugh Bairds Carastan - 35L | 5 oz | 2.51 |
| Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L | 4 oz | 2.01 |
| Special Roast | 1 oz | 0.5 |
Hops
| Name | Amount | Time | Use | Form | Alpha % |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Goldings, East Kent | 20 g | 60 min | Boil | Pellet | 5 |
| Magnum | 15 g | 60 min | Boil | Pellet | 14 |
| Styrian Goldings | 20 g | 1 min | Boil | Pellet | 3.8 |
Yeast
| Name | Lab | Attenuation | Temperature |
|---|---|---|---|
| West Yorkshire Ale (1469) | Wyeast Labs | 69% | 64°F - 72°F |
Download
| Download this recipe's BeerXML file |
I didn’t make a starter for this batch, as I’d recently harvested a good amount of WLP002 English Ale yeast that I would split equally between the batches. The night before brewing, I measured out the grains and observed a subtle difference in color between them.
I proceeded to mill both sets of grain into separate labeled buckets, where they would remain until dough-in.
The following evening, I returned home from work to a kettle of warm strike water, thanks to my helpful-to-the-cause wife. Despite reported differences in potential extract and the impact either malt could have on mash pH, I made no adjustments because I wanted any differences between the beers to be due to the grain alone. Such parameters may be corrected for in a future xBmt. I staggered the start of each mash by about 20 minutes, hitting my target saccharification temperature on each.
I took pH measurements about 10 minutes into each mash that showed a slight difference, though nothing I’d consider drastic.
Following a 60 minute rest, I began wort collection via a standard batch sparge process and noticed no difference in lautering, which I found interesting due to the fact Maris Otter is admired by some professional brewers for its purported ease of releasing wort. Then again, this is homebrewing. Both batches were boiled for 60 minutes with hops added at the prescribed times.
At the completion of each boil, I rapidly chilled the worts to 62˚F/17˚C then took hydrometer measurements and noticed the Maris Otter batch clocked in barely higher than the 2-row wort.
Two temperature controlled fermentors were filled with either wort where they were hit with 60 seconds of pure oxygen before being pitched with equal amounts of WLP002 English Ale yeast slurry. I set the temperature controllers to 66˚F/19˚C and left the beers alone to work.
Airlock activity was noticed the following day and I observed nothing remarkable during fermentation. At 6 days post-pitch, both beers showed a significant drop in airlock activity, so I raised the temperature to 70˚F/21˚C where they sat a few days in order to minimize the chances of any diacetyl and to encourage complete attenuation. Similar hydrometer measurements taken two days apart confirmed both beers were finished fermenting and that one was slightly different than the other.
Out of curiosity, I took pH readings of the finished beers before cold crashing and again noticed a small difference.
I cold crashed the beers, fined with gelatin, transferred to kegs, then let them force carbonate and condition in my keezer for about a week before presenting them to tasters.
| RESULTS |
Forty-seven people of varying experience levels participated in this exBEERiment. Each taster was blindly served 1 sample of the Maris Otter beer and 2 samples of the domestic 2-row beer in different colored opaque cups then asked to select the unique beer. At this sample size, at least 22 accurate selections (p<0.05) would be required to achieve the threshold for statistical significance. In all, 25 (p=.004) of the participants made the accurate selection, meaning they were reliably able to distinguish a beer made from Maris Otter malt from one made with domestic 2-row.
Those who were correct on the initial triangle test were then asked to compare only the two different samples, still blind to the variable in question, and select the one they preferred. Interestingly, preference were evenly split with 10 tasters choosing the Maris Otter beer and 10 saying they preferred the domestic 2-row sample, while four people felt there was no difference and one noticed a difference but had no particular preference.
My Impressions: I cocked up my first go at the blind triangle – such a muppet, but English as I am, argued the toss. I let them warm up, as you should, n’ gave it another go. Aces the rest of the way, never missed it again. Who’d drink English-ish beer cold anyway? Wankers.
I perceived the beer made with domestic 2-row as having a lighter malty bread character that allowed the hop flavor and the esters typical of UK ales to come forward. For that reason, it tasted very English to me. I experienced the Maris Otter beer as being more nutty and slightly sweeter with a generally maltier profile. It also tasted very English, albeit for a different reason, the malt character as opposed to the hops and esters. To be honest, having compared beers from so many other xBmts that I perceived as being more starkly different than these two, I thought early on this would fail to achieve significance. To me, they were different, but I often feel that way, and then panelists show me that perhaps my insider knowledge may have biased my ability. Ultimately, these beers were closer than I thought they’d be, I expected the difference to be more noticeable than it was. I would venture a guess that a brewery relying solely on Maris Otter could slowly dial back their usage and most customers wouldn’t bat an eye.
| DISCUSSION |
I have zero issue admitting a sense of British pride may play into my love of Maris Otter. I was born there and raised here in the good ol’ U.S. of A and served in the world’s finest navy. In England, my family takes the piss by referring to me as the Yankee Doodle, and in America I am the Limey, isn’t that always the way. I won’t say I prefer one malt over the other, as that’s too absolute. When making beer that would benefit from the profile that MO provides, I do take some solace in that it may actually bestow a noticeable difference. For a West Coast IPA, I’ll still lean on domestic 2-row and continue using it for the heavy lifting in most beers I brew. If I desire a malty essence despite a lower gravity, as with most of my session beers, especially UK inspired styles, I will continue to rely on Maris Otter.
I solicited an additional opinion on Maris Otter from a trusted source. Too good to paraphrase, I’ll close with his response:
It just seems to be very well suited to making the type of pale malts that express well as typical English malt flavor. Malty fullness, great mid-mouth body and a slightly drying finish with a hint of biscuit. This flavor, when well deployed, allows the brewer to leave a touch of sweetness in the beer without it being sating or overtly obtrusive. This property works so well as a critical component for a quaffable, lower gravity beer. As pilsner malt it would probably not be quite so sublime but that is not what I would use it for.
Lastly, it embodies a link to history, which is both subjective and intangible. That said, our overall experience of drinking beer is inherently subjective. The history makes me feel good and drinking beer makes me feel good. It does add value to my experience.
Cheers,
John Mallett
Bell’s Brewery Inc.
Author of Malt: A Practical Guide from Field to Brewhouse
Cheerio!
Have you done similar comparisons, have a strong opinion either way, or have questions about base malt? Please leave a comment in the section below!
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69 thoughts on “exBEERiment | Grain Comparison: Maris Otter vs. Domestic (US) 2-Row In A Strong Bitter”
Very interesting experiment. I have recently built a brewery in Europe and this was a concern I had when sourcing ingredients. My brewery in US uses Rahr 2-row and I was looking for an equivalent profile here in Europe. In the end I went with extra pale marris otter. It has the same color as domestic 2-row and I have been very happy with the results. I do not taste a significant difference in profile based on the few beers I have made so far.
I would like to see 2-row vs pilsner malt exbeeriment!
I second that. Here in Brazil our base malt is actually pilsner. Regular 2-row or pale malt(English, German or Belgian, we can’t find american 2-row anywhere) is more than double the price!
I have an EPA clone that I brew a lot that had an almost identical experiment, but a little more hop forward. I normally use 2row in it, but ran out and forgot to grab another sack before brewday. so I just threw the same amount of Maris otter in there and brewed it as close as I could get it to my last brew of this clone. When all was said and done, I did a blind taste with my wife pouring for me. I preferred the maris otter 100% and changed the recipe for my personal taste to include it. I’m with you man.
My Impressions: I cocked up my first go at the blind triangle – such a muppet, but English as I am, argued the toss. I let them warm up, as you should, n’ gave it another go. Aces the rest of the way, never missed it again. Who’d drink English-ish beer cold anyway? Wankers.
Can someone translate this into American?
Joking aside, really liked this experiment. I was secretly hoping that it didn’t reach significance. Golden Promise vs. 2-Row could be an interesting for some more across the pond action.
He Who Must,
“Can someone translate this into American?”
Thank you for that! You’re a champion.
Here’s the thing: while a greater-than-expected-by-chance number of tasters were able to identify the odd-one-out, the real results are this: among those who were able (by chance or by taste) to distinguish between them, an EQUAL NUMBER of tasters chose the beer made w/ each type of malt.
So–it would appear MO makes a differently-tasting beer than 2-row. However, which is better? Answer: no evidence here supports the idea that either is better.
I prefer MO, but in no way do I claim it’s better. I like the way it tastes better, but you might prefer 2-row. If so, who is “right?” Well, me of course :), but when it comes to flavor, the only judge whose opinion matters is you.
“I prefer MO, but in no way do I claim it’s better. I like the way it tastes better, but you might prefer 2-row. If so, who is “right?” Well, me of course :), but when it comes to flavor, the only judge whose opinion matters is you.”
Perfect response – for us homebrewers.
Perhaps not for the pro’s – they need to worry about gobs of opinions.
Gosh! Didn’t expect it to be close! How about brewing a simpler malt bill, cask conditioning and serving off the yeast at cellar temperature with a beer engine? That may well make the MO really stand out compared to other malts. Trying this I’ve found some difference in MO flavour between the different Maltsters such as Crisp (dull really), Fawcett (more toffee, robust, sweet) or Warminster (more breadcrust, soft malty milk, some huskiness, prettier more delicate).
I find if I crash out all the yeast then keg and carb English beers they lose that special magic.
Great experiment, cheers!
Thanks for sharing your experience with various malts pre and post conditioning steps.
Can you lend me the cask and gravity engine?
Glad this one came out to statistical significance, from a biased English man!
Certainly I have preferred to pay the little extra charge on a belief that it adds a little more for a grain driven style.
I’ve also been interested in whether different brands and products which are deemed interchangeable truly pass without identification, certainly once the CoA has been taken into account.
I am curious to compare the various MO’s or British Pale malts as well – from a fellow biased (semi) limey.
Dave, check out which type of malt the tasters preferred. Answer: they were split exactly down the middle. In this case, “statistical significance” is nothing more than a way to say that to some people, the two malts tasted differently.
So which is better? Depends on your taste. Lost in all this as well is that only 25 of the 47 tasters were able to distinguish between them (by luck or taste). That means nearly half coudn’t perceive a difference to begin with, and of those who apparently could, preferences were split.
I’m currently reading “For Love of Hops,” the book in the series with Yeast, Water, and Malt. In it, there is a longish discussion of certain flavor characteristics of some hops, which many (in some cases half or more) people are unable to taste. The author calls them blind to the flavor.
I suspect there’s something similar going on here. I like MO better, but perhaps I’m just blind to whatever flavor elements traditional 2-row presents to others’ palates that makes them prefer it over MO–or the opposite.
Just to make this comment longer, I suspect this will often be the case in Exbeeriments where flavors are judged. In others such as process Exbeeriments (Trub vs. no Trub, not using a secondary, and so on), a lack of ability to discern differences in flavor is likely a good thing. So this issue of flavor only presents itself in certain contexts.
Hi Mike, Yeah I appreciate that the results may not be considered practically significant, given that it cannot be said to be better or worse. However, as I stated my preference lies in using it. Imagine my face, had it turned out to be both statistically significant and practically significant, in so much that the 2-row was considered to make the better beer! 😀
The hops book is the one of that set I haven’t got around to reading, but they are an excellent resource.
Interesting, and that definition of Wanker is hilariously off the mark.
Oh? How so? I know the literal definition, well as literal as slang can be, but I also known it’s common usage. * I should say how it was used by those I knew in our area.
Maybe you are proper English and have a different experience vs my occasional visits. Perhaps you are referring to the verb (the act of waking and thus the person doing such) vs the adjective (an idiot, dolt, fool, someone who is generally teased).
I have not been to visit for 7 years now, but hanging with friends, cousins, and such in London and surrounding area it was used as the latter.
For example, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wanker
I wouldn’t define it as ‘idiot’, although you could definitely use it in the same way you use ‘idiot’… to me it denotes more unkindness, unfairness, selfishness, un-‘proper’ behaviour. If your mate gets a cheaper beer on his round than he does on everyone else’s… classic wanker. If he can give out the insults but gets in a massive strop if you say anything about him? Wanker. Starts supporting a team when they start winning… definition of wanker.
It also marks out that curiously British hatred of people who puts themselves forward, or excel at anything without modesty or think they’re ‘better than they are’.
More importantly though…. excellent post, very interesting! It’s nice to see that malt makes a significant difference. As someone up thread said, I’d suspect this difference might be accentuated by the way cask ale is conditioned and served.
Proper usage and better wording of slang lesson accepted! Haha. I trust you have a better grasp than I.
I’m enjoying these ingredient comparisons (Roasted malts, base malts). I’ve always been told ‘use ingredients from the country who’s style you’re brewing’, but that’s not always possible depending where you live.
It’s been said 1000 times already: Try it. You might like the results. If you don’t, do it differently next time.
I’ve stopped fretting about specific yeast type (Lager vs Bock vs Pilsner). Same with malts and hops. Taste is so subjective, brew what you like; you’re friends will still drink it if it’s free and cold.
And if they’re British, just free.
It is largely used in a derogatory sense, but always with the underlying association with masturbation. It’s mostly largely used similarly to the way in which Americans use ‘asshole’ or ‘jerk’, from what I can tell (I am English and have always lived here, but my other half is from Chicago). As with most use of swearing in this country it comes down to tone and circumstance as to whether you take offence.
Exactly TB. Just as when we say someone is an asshole (arsehole) we don’t mean literally a sphincter. It means jerk, or dolt, or doofus, dummy, fool – depending.
I recall being a few pints deep when I went to walk into the flat at a party. The screen door, which was previously left open, was now shut. I go face first into it and partially spill my beer on my shirt. First thing I heard was a cackle and “WANKER”! Cousin’s BF was giving me shit (taking the piss) for -one being a yankee, two being pissed (drunk), and lastly being an idiot. I squeezed the drink from my shirt into the glass and redeemed myself.
Hah, yeah in that circumstance I more or less agree with that definition, it’s commonly used like that, but it is probably even more commonly used to refer to a third party whose actions you have taken issue with, and then it is intended entirely with malice.
TB,
Exactly. I take issue with people who serve English beer cold. They are wankers (full circle), even if it’s me.
Hey man, thank for chiming in. That was fun.
I wonder if the results would have showed an even greater significance had the recipe been a very lightly hopped, single malt blonde with a clean ale yeast? This might show more of the unique attributes of each malt.
Perhaps. You mean even MORE people could tell?
In my opinion it was lightly hopped. In the mid 30’s (IBU) vs 40-50 which its where I would prefer it. In fact, I had wished I made it more hoppy so I’d be more apt to drink it. I think once the British ales get much above 5.0% abv (1.052/ 12.75P) and end with body (this was 1.014/ 3.5P) they need the bitterness to improve the drinkability. Maybe true with many beers but with the UK styles and yeast they tend to leave the beer 1-3 gravity points (1/2 to 3/4 P) higher.
I am always going back and forth on how to brew these beer. Should I give the variable to the best chance – in this case I lowered the IBU and late hops, or should I just brew the beer as most of us would brew them and as I would prefer to drink them?
You make a good point, at the end of the day you’re a home brewer. I’m sure you want to make something you’ll enjoy, even if it’s an xbmt beer. The example I gave of a basic blonde, even though it may better highlight the variable, would have most likely been “meh.”
On a side note, thanks again for doing these xbmt’s! I’ve read them all and they’ve really changed my process for the better. You guys are awesome!
Cheers!
Thank you for posting and being part of the experience on your end. We need readers, posters, and interaction to make it more fun and educational.
With respect to the statement you made about the lauter, “Maris Otter is admired by some professional brewers for its purported ease of releasing wort,” it is my understanding that Maris Otter to renowned for more easily releasing *extract* into the wort, not releasing wort during lautering. This aligns better with the Mallett quote you provide in your first paragraph. Am I mistaken on that one?
Great write-up, as usual.
I took it as both. Potentially more sugar per pound, per gallon, but also ease of lauter or recovery of that sugar. I could certainly be wrong. I do tend to get about 2 gravity points (0.5 P) higher with most MO malts when compared to American 2 Row Pale Ale Malts.
I had a great time heading up to the ‘Burgh to take part. Josh and I will have to do it again whenever you have another exBEERiment going on up there.
It’s hard to say which beer was preferred, and I think you nailed it. Each malt lent a character to the beer that the other lacked. This is definitely one I was excited to see done.
Thanks for making the trip! I love meeting new folk and readers from all over.
I have at least twice carried out Maris Otter and local Australian base malt comparisons. Each time I brewed ordinary bitters (around 3.5%). Mostly base malt with a small percentage of a medium English crystal, EKG’s and WLP013 (London). I usually brew two 22L batches at a time, with a 15 minute difference between batches. Each time the batches were treated in the same way (e.g. both in the same temp controlled fridge).
Tasted blind side by side (but not three way) at the ESB Home Brewers Club meeting. Each time (9 to 0, 12 to 0) the Maris Otter beer was preferred. The difference was kept secret until after the comparison. The overwhelming reason for the preference was deeper/better/breadier malt character.
This was a few years ago, and it is only comparisons so take it for what it is worth. I am drinking a recently brewed English IPA (88% TF Maris Otter and it would be hard to get the deep malt flavour with local pale malt IMHO.
Really I need to do another comparison with a three way component. Thanks for the motivation.
I’m loving these experiments. But how can 22 out of 47 possibly be a statistically significant result? That’s nearly spot on 50:50, otherwise known as chance.
The odds of a correct selection in a 3-choice triangle test is 1 in 3, or .3333, not 50-50.
You’d expect 1/3 out of 47 just by chance, or a shade under 16; a number of 25 out of 47 is very unlikely. A number that extreme (or more so) would appear, in repeated infinite trials, about 4 times in 1000.
In other words, we’ve got a choice: do we believe that the results come from a “population” where there is only a 1/3 chance of the right choice, and this is just a very unusual result, or do we believe the results come from a population where more than a random number can, indeed, make the correct choice?
Until shown by other replications of the exbeeriment, I’d believe the second, i.e., that more than a random 1/3 of the “population” can distinguish between beers made with the two malts.
Thanks Mike Dalecki,
I was typing as you were replying apparently.
Hey Rob,
It’s a triangle vs a side-by-side comparison. Statistical chance would suggest that 1/3 of the participants would select each color. So 15.6 (15 or 16) people would pick Red, and same for Green, and same for Blue. We had 25 select the different beer but only 22 were required,. 22 would have been 6.3 above what would be expected to occur by chance alone.
To add to what others have stated about different maltsters: my experience with MO is still limited, but I’ve used both Fawcett (what was used in your test) and Bairds – and I found a significant difference in extraction for Bairds. Anytime I used it, I had to crank up my expected mash efficiency by 5-10 points to get reasonably close, while Fawcett seems more in the neighborhood of my typical efficiency rate. It’d be interesting to see if someone could duplicate my findings there.
Good idea…just gotta source one vs. the other.
Sorry to interrupt all the wanker talk, but…
As a fellow Brulosophy writer, I reached out to the former technical director for SIBA in the UK (Independent Brewers association…), Don Burgess. In a focused response on what makes MO different (not better as some here seem to think this was trying to say) he submitted the following — which I loved — as follows:
Assuming that the water is correctly treated to bring out the best in the brew (a thesis worth of discussion in itself!), then Malt is, in my opinion, the next critical flavour point. (note to Matt – leave the U in, we are the Mother country it’s how WE spell it!).
To treat malt as just “malt” is a huge mistake, as big as saying all hops are equal, water treatment doesn’t matter and you only need boil long enough to sterilise, the world is flat and bacon is not Ambrosia.
By now, I am long enough in facial hair to remember the days (the early 90’s) when we had the choice of Marris Otter or Halcyon, and few other choices . At that time, Otter was considered on its way out as a commercial malt, farmers were wanting a better yield per acre, maltsters wanted cheaper malt to offset the high fuel costs of the time, and the big brewers with mechanical mashing systems and pressurised wort/mash separators, the bulk of the malt was being geared for industrial process brewing, not milling and mashing in by hand. The big brewers were more obsessed with yield per Kg of extract, as long as there were no off flavours, and the wort boiled to clarity easily, then that was OK, deep flavours and full body didn’t really matter, nitrokeg and tetra hop would present the beer well after it had been liquored down and chilled to within an inch of its life.
Well then those awful rag tag Small Brewers turned up and [to quote a prominent Family Brewer) “you lot have come along and upset what was a very comfortable existence”
The small brewers were often beer drinkers with a passion to brew quality cask ale, the sort of thing made by a few regional brewers, not the stuff made by the “big boys” . The maltsters about at that time were making Marris Otter malt for the regional (intermediate sized) brewers, it was generally only the smaller maltings who were supplying the small brewers as they could package into the smaller bags required by the smaller brewers, and they would supply pre-crushed malt.
Anyone who was used to brewing with Otter would notice straight away the Halcyon was a different malt, it smelt “much thinner” in the mash tun, ran off faster, fermented well, but it didn’t have the full mouth feel or the full on organoleptic profile of the Otter. Otter was far more forgiving , it would mash from 63 to 67c and still produce good wort (many of the newer malts, I have found, need a spot on 65c initial mash temperature), it may not run off so quickly, it may have a lower extract, BUT it has flavour and character not seen with the higher extract cheaper , malts. Warminster maltings recently demonstrated this to the industry by brewing 5 beers to identical recipes, the malt variety being the only variable, the spectrum of flavours produced surprised many of those who thought of malt as a component rather than a flexible friend and valued ingredient. At that time, the huge variety of hops seen today was not known, Golding, Fuggle, Brambling Cross, and Target were about the limit of UK hops, we used Cascade and some New Zealand varieties, but that was about it.
The thing is/was to quote Warminster Maltings “Malt is the table on which all else is set”, that is, in an environment where hops were expensive, did not suit the “Alpha bombing” East Coast US style of brewing, and for smaller brewers the aforementioned industrial methods were anathema, funny how the Hipster-hopster brewers are now rediscovering hop destroying, sweet, Nitro as a dispense method, hmmm, like many things, we may know about it, how to do it, what it will do, but some things are best left alone in the dark place under the stairs than dusted off and dragged into the light of day.
So, for several reasons, Otter has retained its crown, it provides an excellent foundation for presenting hop flavours without the high intensity “hop Bombs” favoured today, these beers are all ok to drink for a bet, but I want a hoppy beer which doesn’t carry over into everything I drink for the rest of the night, Otter fills the pause in between initial bitterness and the second wave of hop flavour, it provides a satisfying mouthful of beer rather than the ephemeral wet but watery flavour note often seen with commercial high adjunct beers. A full flavoured malt like Otter enables the brewer to relax, cut down on the hop additions and celebrate the flavour of the hop, enjoy a deep kiss of hops, not a teeth shattering full on smack of Iso-alpha acid and hop resin. You will need a good assertive malt in the foundation to do this. As mentioned, it has a lower yield per acre than newer varieties, hence the price differential – the Farmer has to be compensated for the loss per acre compared to a modern variety.
Even a traditional hoppy beer like a British IPA seems to be missing a brick in the flavour wall if the malt used isn’t suitably full bodied.
To try to sum it all up, Marris Otter brings the perfect foundation to the presentation of your hops and your skill as a brewer, it adds another dimension of ingredient flavour when building the recipe, and , when suitably understood, Otter can make a huge difference to the presentation of the recipe. There is far more to brewing good beer than how much of a hop charge the copper wiill take, less can be more , and Otter can help to achieve this. The brewers who dismiss malt and look to hop bombing are really stewed hop infusion technicians, not brewers. If you want to brew an authentic British Real Ale, or any other beer with enough foundation to stand up to overloud, bossy, hops, then Otter is for you. If you want your beer all hop, no grain, then you have my pity, but to get what you want just go for any high yield low character malt, you will have my pity, but I am sure that you will be happy.
*mic drop*
Thanks for sharing!
thanks for reading and commenting
I’m wondering how it would turn out if you modified the domestic malt bill with additional specialty malts to closer approximate the flavors. I only keep Canadian 2-row on hand as my base malt, but I use specialty malts to mimic the flavors you would get from MO. I usually substitute about 12% of the base malt with biscuit, and another 12% with victory, leaving any other specialty malts as the same. This has worked well for me, though I have never done a formal experiment with it. I find this method works well for me so that I don’t keep partial sacks of different types of base grain on hand.
This method assumes there is a significant difference in the base malts themselves, but attempts to make up for that difference when needed. I like this method, as it allows me to use the Candian 2-row for just about all that I brew.
I recently did this same exact experiment, but wonder if for the purpose of your experiment it would have been better to eliminate all other grains from the bill. Essentially, brewing a SMaSH. This summer I brewed the same SMaSH 3 times, but with MO, Vienna, and standard US 2-row(can’t remember which malting houses, it was whatever my LHBS was carrying.) The difference between MO and 2-row was striking, but the difference between MO and Vienna was much more difficult to discern.
Having spent 10 days in London in April drowning myself in English ale, my MO SMaSH tasted exactly(as far as i could remember) like a Sam Smith or Young’s ale, and that was using US-05(for transparency)!
“but wonder if for the purpose of your experiment it would have been better to eliminate all other grains from the bill. Essentially, brewing a SMaSH.”
That would have investigated and considered more strongly IF this one had NOT reached significance. However, I would never entirely rule out the possibility of revisiting the concept. It’s not hard to get me motivated to brew with British malts and to make British beer!
I’ve discovered that if I add a pinch of Munich and Vienna (maybe 3-5% of grist each) to a base of US 2 row, I can mimic a bit of the biscuit and nutty quality found in more expensive UK base malts such as Maris Otter. This little trick works for my palate, at least.
Certainly a good technique to bump up the bready and/ or toasty.
I compared golden promise and heritage chevallier malt, made the same beer and fermented in the same fridge. They were completely different. The chevallier was much cleaner and maltier. The gp sweeter and more sulphurous
Hey Malcolm, nice experiment.
There are differences in the Maltsters. Floor malting adds another layer of flavor. Warminster MO was sublime the time I used it, but pretty spendy. Glenn Eagles is said to be excellent, never have used it.
Since you have a note from John Mallett, I have to mention my impressions of the Andrew’s ale they made a couple of years back. It was brewed with Chevallier Malt, and open fermented. The taste brought flavor impressions of eating an excellent baguette with a spread of walnut paste. Very bready and nutty. Maybe you could get a sample of that and do a comparison? Mallett might be able to help, as he did write the book!
Hey there Jeff,
I am sorry to have miss this reply from you, man. John M did mention is use of the Chevallier Malt. He was super helpful when talking to him, and yes the book is excellent as well. I love how some of the UK pales have that toasted nut aroma and flavor while also not leaning too far twd sweet. They remain very sessionable – not so surprisingly. Haha
Hey, Malcolm. As a newish homebrewer I am really digging you guys’ work.
In this exBeeriment–and others, if the same–when you ask those who “passed” the triangle test which they prefer, is it which beer “as a beer” they prefer, or which one they prefer as an x-style (ESB, in this case)?
I know you use a variety of judges so I realized I have been assuming the first. But perhaps that is not the case. They are vastly different questions, at least for some folks.
Cheers!
We typically just ask them to say which they prefer. Not everyone is a judge or has been “trained” so that would require further discussion which we try to keep to the bare minimum.
I tend to agree it has the potential to change the response, but should it? It’s still preference. We don’t ask them which beer is more to style – just which is preferred.
A judge, or even a well versed beer fan, MAY alter their response if the asked to compare to a style. What amuses me though is that since we don’t reveal that – why would a beer potentially be more preferred now than before know what is it “supposed to be”. Preference, imo, should not rely on what the brewer claims to have been trying to make.
Thank you very much for putting this together. I am trying to up my game by studying malt in more detail. Your efforts are appreciated. I think a couple 3 pounds of Maris Otter is going to start making it into my beers. I brewed a beer that called for 2 lbs out of 15 and I think it added a unique bit of flavor. I don’t see going to full on Maris Otter for the base but I’m gonna start making it part of the bill. Thanks again.
I’d really like to know DDB’s view on this exBEERiment. #BIL
Who?
So my burning question….. how drinkable is this recipe 😊
Very!
I agree with Marshall. It’s a very good beer. I would say that the Gold Swaen red malt is pretty intensely flavored. If you wanted to lighten it up a bit you could probably reduce that bya third or a half. I really like the color though.
Great read! I looking at it the other way round, would you use MO instead of US-2 Row in a Anchor Steam clone? I’m thinking you wouldn’t? I’m considering Propino Extra Pale as a good sub for US-2 Row. Any thoughts? Cheers from the Motherland!
I just listened to the podcast on this one. It was a very interesting topic. As suggested, I would love to see Maris Otter vs one of the American “Pale Ale” malts. I have it somewhere on my long list of experiment beers to brew to try out different base malts, but I would not be surprised if 95% of the difference between Maris Otter and American 2-Row is in the malting process. That is bolstered by the other post suggesting that “Pale” Maris Otter is similar in profile to American 2-Row.
For example, the Bell’s Two Hearted clone lists ~20% “Briess Pale Malt 3.5L” (along with “Briess Two-row Brewers Malt 1.8L) and I get just a hint of a biscuit flavor with that beer.
The idea of mimicking Maris Otter by adding a handful of a malt like Victory or Biscuit is interesting as well.
Great experiment as always!
I wonder how Marris Otter compares to the Pale Malt (not the plain 2 row) from Great Western.
They manufacture a normal two row and a slightly maltier version called pale malt. I think you used the plain 2 row in this experiment rather than their pale
https://www.morebeer.com/products/great-western-american-pale-malt.html?fbclid=IwAR1u40df5T5QYGvSLrX4yGKDDEM0xPZ9HlWqzYc-GzE8vrf4cbMNjsexa_w
for saccharification temperature 155F? what was recommended for this recipe – going to do a 3 gallon batch in my new Foundry 6.5 🙂 as the inaugural run
Sorry? Not sure I follow, but if asking how to achieve the 155F mash temp – You need to adjust the strike temp depending on a few factors. Grain temp, equipment temp and thermal mass, water to grain ratio, and so forth. Shoot for 155F, if you are a degree or two above or below I wouldn’t worry about it. Take notes and adjust next time.
No was wondering what SACC temp was recommended or that they used
Did 154 when we made it 2 weeks ago. Transfer to brite tank today 🙂
They was me. And it was a single temp infusion at 155F. You did it at 154F? The beer is ruined.
Joking, of course, should be absolutely fine. At the homebrew level, with most mixing methods, and subsequent thermometer use/ sample method, mash temps are only with in a few degrees of accuracy (when you combine all the variables).
Great experiment on a subject I was pondering. Do you have the certificate of analysis for the two malts used? That would be useful data to understand the differences between the beers.